An end to MCS dominance in the solar PV market? (self declared exports now available)

[glenns]

No need, just dumping excess to your immersion heater with a diverter takes care of almost all the surplus. The small export is when the inverter is running at full chat 3.68kW and the immersion can only sink just under 3kW if there is nothing else in the house using power.

We're on a combi so no hot water tank for us....

Maybe an unvented cylinder would be a sensible option but champagne under the stars in a hot tub....

 

[Ronski]

Self using near 100% is king.

Disagree, my electric bill for the last four months is -£600, my gas and electric for July was -£91

 

[ProDave]

MCS having a grump at this proposal.

https://www.current-news.co.uk/mcs-...tion-requirement-from-smart-export-guarantee/

 

[glenns]

Disagree, my electric bill for the last four months is -£600, my gas and electric for July was -£91

Wow!... that's quite a return.

I've saved over £1200 in my first year so I'm happy... bought an extra battery with the proceeds, unfortunately as it was a "DIY" install I've no MCS hence why this topic is interesting to me... what tariff are you on ?

 

[glenns]

MCS having a grump at this proposal.

https://www.current-news.co.uk/mcs-...tion-requirement-from-smart-export-guarantee/

I'm shocked!

If artisan electrics experience () is anything to go by (not saying it is) then MCS is not really living up to it's duties.

I'm no expert but even I've seen a good few solar installs done by MCS accredited companies that are obviously dangerous.

Personally I'd much rather they allow anyone (within reason) to install and pay a fixed fee for an inspection and approval.

 

[Murdoch]

Given then the amount of DIY installs without MCS or Part P - I would think the CPS's are probably wondering what to do too.

What a fing shambles

 

[binky]

I'm shocked!

If artisan electrics experience () is anything to go by (not saying it is) then MCS is not really living up to it's duties.

I'm no expert but even I've seen a good few solar installs done by MCS accredited companies that are obviously dangerous.

Personally I'd much rather they allow anyone (within reason) to install and pay a fixed fee for an inspection and approval.

that video is absolutely spot on and totally reflects my 10 years of MCS registration. MCS is just a Quango trying to make money for itself, when the FiT was cancelled and loads of installers, like myself, left, they tried to muscle in on EV chargers and other works. All in the name of public safety and quality of course. BUT, as it says in the video, the annual assessment was 5 hours of paperwork checking and a quick glance at an installation, where one of the few things they could pick up easily was safety labels - oooooh they were hot on lables, the fact the roof work was total crap never got picked up, coz they couldn't get to the roof to have a look.... Even on an initial assessment, they didn't insist on having access to the roof, ie to inspect during installation to check you were doing the job right. And it is for these very reasons, and my general dislike of MCS, that I have spent inordinate amounts of time on this forum education DiYers how to do the job themselves. It's also why MCS registered isntallers charge lots for the work done, they have to cover the costs of all that paperwork.

 

[Ronski]

Wow!... that's quite a return.

I've saved over £1200 in my first year so I'm happy... bought an extra battery with the proceeds, unfortunately as it was a "DIY" install I've no MCS hence why this topic is interesting to me... what tariff are you on ?

I'm on Octopus Flux.

 

[binky]

Now, what I forgot to say above is what iI think should be the situation in regard to fitting solar and battteries.

The original intention of the FiT scheme was that solar work would become 'run of the mill' for electricians and associated trades. As such and given it is fairly specialist stuff with some serious potential safety issues, I don't think anyone should really be fitting gear unless they have done a suitable training course, or at least not selling their services to the general public unless they have completed training. Registration for such works should then be tagged onto the regular NICEIC/ NAPIT membership, without all the BS paperwork systems that MCS require. All installs need to be registered with DNO, and building control as per regular wiring requirements for a 'special location' / new circuits. All installs should also have an independent 3rd party warranty from wether HIES or RECC - that was never too onerous or that expensive at about £70 last time I looked. This would open the market up to regular small businesses, like most of the electicians on here, meaning most installs would probaby be fitted by local trades, not companies based hundreds of miles away sending gangs of cheap labour to bodge your roof.

 

[UNG]

MCS having a grump at this proposal.

https://www.current-news.co.uk/mcs-...tion-requirement-from-smart-export-guarantee/

It's not a surprise that MCS are trying to defend their position in the market, I'm not sure the independant consultant has done himself any favours by supporting the MCS and as an expert witness may have compromised himself
Reducing the hold MCS has over the solar industry can only have a positive effect on the uptake of solar and also battery storage and while it is very easy to diss the non MCS registered installers and promote a position of fear of what just might go wrong using a non registered installer I believe that risk is just as likely to occur with a registered installer from some of the MCS certificated PV installs I have seen

The Artisan video was an interesting watch and left me wondering how many installs per year do you need to do to make installing solar and batteries a viable proposition given all the costs involved if MCS is involved

 

[binky]

The Artisan video was an interesting watch and left me wondering how many installs per year do you need to do to make installing solar and batteries a viable proposition given all the costs involved if MCS is involved

I reckoned registration was costing me at least £3k per year, and that was 6-7 years ago, so you need to be doing about 1 install per week to water it down to a sensible level ie about £60. I left MCS after the collase of the FiT mean't I was doing about 3 new installs per year, and repairing bodged systems. The figures just didn't add up anymore. Trouble with the current system is that it favours big outfits with money behind them to cover the office costs and advertise heavily, and they tend to employ contractors rather than their own teams, and we all know what that tends to result in..

 

[UNG]

The original intention of the FiT scheme was that solar work would become 'run of the mill' for electricians and associated trades.

From what I have seen there is nothing in the scope of work that suggests it shouldn't be

As such and given it is fairly specialist stuff with some serious potential safety issues, I don't think anyone should really be fitting gear unless they have done a suitable training course, or at least not selling their services to the general public unless they have completed training.

So much work is tagged as being specialist these days that was back when I started what an electrician did. During my apprenticeship on one site I got to rebuild / refurbish / re-cell a number of fork truck batteries not long after I finished my apprenticeship I was involved in building a couple of large battery cubicles for a UPS system and there was no "specislist" training. I remember a call out in the mid 80's not long after I went self employed to a UPS battery rack complete with batteries that a delivery company had tipped up, the intructions from the company supplying it was to get an electrical contractor in to dismantle it ASAP, it was quite interesting breaking down a battery unit that was setup to supply 240v
Recently after 2 MCS companies failed to correctly troubleshoot a solar system I helped one of my electrician mates out to identify the fault, both the MCS companies said it was a panel issue one guy was about to test the panel voltage when it was pointed out to him if it was wise somehow I doubt his 600v multimeter would have lasted long when the string was putting out 900v. The fault was actually one half of the inverter had failed and the fault pulled the 900v string voltage to zero

Registration for such works should then be tagged onto the regular NICEIC/ NAPIT membership, without all the BS paperwork systems that MCS require.

Why burden an already useless scheme system with more perceived power

All installs need to be registered with DNO, and building control as per regular wiring requirements for a 'special location' / new circuits. All installs should also have an independent 3rd party warranty from wether HIES or RECC - that was never too onerous or that expensive at about £70 last time I looked. This would open the market up to regular small businesses, like most of the electicians on here, meaning most installs would probaby be fitted by local trades, not companies based hundreds of miles away sending gangs of cheap labour to bodge your roof.

Which is all just basic job management

I reckoned registration was costing me at least £3k per year, and that was 6-7 years ago, so you need to be doing about 1 install per week to water it down to a sensible level ie about £60. I left MCS after the collase of the FiT mean't I was doing about 3 new installs per year, and repairing bodged systems. The figures just didn't add up anymore.

And that really sums up why there aren't more solar installers as it doesn't fit the small general electrical business model where they have a few strings to their bow and would only do a small number of installs

Trouble with the current system is that it favours big outfits with money behind them to cover the office costs and advertise heavily, and they tend to employ contractors rather than their own teams, and we all know what that tends to result in..

The big companies subbing work out probably are aren't paying the subbies a rate that allows for a quality job, but then again everybody has a different idea of what a quality job is

 

[Murdoch]

How can subbies do the work? They don’t hold the accreditations

 

[binky]

How can subbies do the work? They don’t hold the accreditations

Overseen, supposedly by an accredited company. No different to larger electrical companies that have a single electrical supervisor.

 

[binky]

From what I have seen there is nothing in the scope of work that suggests it shouldn't be

I'm glad to say it's going that way, insurance probably stops more sparks getting involved!

So much work is tagged as being specialist these days that was back when I started what an electrician did.

Coincides with the rise in Quangs / private companies overseeing industry

Recently after 2 MCS companies failed to correctly troubleshoot a solar system I helped one of my electrician mates out to identify the fault, both the MCS companies said it was a panel issue one guy was about to test the panel voltage when it was pointed out to him if it was wise somehow I doubt his 600v multimeter would have lasted long when the string was putting out 900v. The fault was actually one half of the inverter had failed and the fault pulled the 900v string voltage to zero

Big string! Those are solar farm numbers, but they should have test gear for solar...

Why burden an already useless scheme system with more perceived power

I'm not keen on this either, as you can't help feel they will exploit it, but I do feel some standards are needed.

Which is all just basic job management

Yep

And that really sums up why there aren't more solar installers as it doesn't fit the small general electrical business model where they have a few strings to their bow and would only do a small number of installs

Yep. I had 6 staff and was tiny compared to many installers.

The big companies subbing work out probably are aren't paying the subbies a rate that allows for a quality job, but then again everybody has a different idea of what a quality job is

No scaffold, expected to do 3 jobs a day, can use a hammer - just, indoor glands on outdoor isolators, etc etc. There's a reason solar was getting the same reputation as double glazing....

 

[Bob23]

This sounds promising. Be interesting to know how much free energy has been provided to the national grid since 2019.

Sure our new build estate has 400 houses since 2019, all uncertified and with 3 panels on each roof.. across the country the national grid must’ve done quite well out of all the folks out at working during daylight

 

[ProDave]

This sounds promising. Be interesting to know how much free energy has been provided to the national grid since 2019.

Sure our new build estate has 400 houses since 2019, all uncertified and with 3 panels on each roof.. across the country the national grid must’ve done quite well out of all the folks out at working during daylight

That is just builders who slap a few panels on the roof because they build such lousy houses they would not scrape through building control without them. But no doubt there will be free export, because the majority of buyers are equally clueless and won't have the first idea about how to best self use this solar power their house is generating.

 

[binky]

This sounds promising. Be interesting to know how much free energy has been provided to the national grid since 2019.

Sure our new build estate has 400 houses since 2019, all uncertified and with 3 panels on each roof.. across the country the national grid must’ve done quite well out of all the folks out at working during daylight

estate builders were the first to drop MCS, they had no plans to provide FiT for the solar to the customer, so just didn't bother bar notifying DNO. When I dropped MCS I was talking to my account manager at SEGEN, their comment to me was that most of their customers were not MCS anymore and had dropped it sometime before I did.

 

[UNG]

I'm glad to say it's going that way, insurance probably stops more sparks getting involved!

Insurance can be the big kicker due to "Working at Height" when I was involved in comms instalation we had to setup a separate company to do it cost effectively as the turnover related insurance liabilities was impacting the profit when the comms work was around 25% of our work

Coincides with the rise in Quangs / private companies overseeing industry

While the quangos have a part in it a lot has to do with the limited base level training and qualifications these days add to that the training companies who time limit some of the "advanced" qualifications to 3 years even though little has changed in the last 30 years to warrant the resit culture

Big string! Those are solar farm numbers, but they should have test gear for solar...

It was on the roof of a large grain storage barn
2 strings of 48 panels and 2 strings of 46 panels running into 2 inverters setup as east and west



The interesting one was one of the MCS outfits that looked at the fault said they would have to come back with a drone to locate the fault we are still trying to work out how that would find the fault when it was at ground level

I'm not keen on this either, as you can't help feel they will exploit it, but I do feel some standards are needed.

They will do or provide anything at a cost and I doubt most of the assessors have sufficient skill and real world experience to properly assess what they are looking at

Yep. I had 6 staff and was tiny compared to many installers.

Big enough to do the work but small enough to keep control of the quality, at our peak me and my business partner had 12 staff across 2 companies most were employed by one company but were skilled up to work across both companies, keeping control of quality wasn't easy as at times we worked across Europe in teams of 2 or 3

No scaffold, expected to do 3 jobs a day, can use a hammer - just, indoor glands on outdoor isolators, etc etc. There's a reason solar was getting the same reputation as double glazing....

Working at height needs respect and a level of care that some ignore, while a scaffold is useable by those with limited training there are those who have a gungho attitude with a large dose of bravado who will belittle others not prepared to take the risk of working without the appropriate method of working

 

[binky]

@UNG organising work across Europe must have been a right pain in the neck!

Insurance wasn't too bad, but I only had a small team and lowish turnover figures, around £500k. I always find it interesting insurance companies don't ask more questions like have your staff been trained to do xyz before offering cover.

I originally trained in the Aerospsce indistry where 20-30 year life cycles was normal. I applied, as far as possible, the same principles to solar, my team was never rushed to complete a job, and it's amazing how much faulty roof work we found and fixed - do roofers even have qualifications? I was tempted to take on some subby teams, it may well have improved turnover and my profits, but would probably have increased my headaches too. I sometimes wonder if big companies charge silly money to cover poor workmanship from their subbies?

It was mostly foreign worker teams I've seen without scaffolding, and some die hard DIYers. Trouble is if you don't feel safe on the roof, you can't focus on doing the job right, so I'm not too surprised at some of the phone calls I got to fix badly installed arrays. One fella had water running down through his house to the lounge. Unfortunately it was a 'rent a roof' install, so I couldn't help him as it wasn't his array.

MCS did do some good, they kicked Everest off the register for using high pressure sales tactics.