but there's far more copper in that pipe than the bond, ergo pointless - clerly test to prove, but from an electrical continuity point of view both points are very well linked.
Bonding ..again !
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I didn’t say that it wasn’t pointless, I said that for strict compliance it’s necessary.
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For the average domestic property these re-emerging pipes scenarios are as Binky suggests a very low level risk....
But I think the key point is.....
The average domestic property.. is NOT every possible type of installation...
e.g. in some larger domestic (and of course non-domestic) situations a re-emerging pipe could be a whole different ball game..
So bottom line is... as with 99% of electrical work, that there is NO "one-size-fits-all" solution..
It is a situation everyone should be aware of..
Do whatever tests they consider necessary..
Take carful consideration of BS7671..
Then decide if or what to bond as appropriate...
Fill in & sign your certificate, with any relevant comments/observations/deviations you consider appropriate..
At the end of the day, it will only be if or when A.N.Other is seriously (or fatally) injured due to your electrical work , that someone will start questioning your judgment?
To ignore re-emerging pipes without any consideration of BS7671 shows a lack of understanding of the regs we work to IMHO..
Guinness
But I think the key point is.....
The average domestic property.. is NOT every possible type of installation...
e.g. in some larger domestic (and of course non-domestic) situations a re-emerging pipe could be a whole different ball game..
So bottom line is... as with 99% of electrical work, that there is NO "one-size-fits-all" solution..
It is a situation everyone should be aware of..
Do whatever tests they consider necessary..
Take carful consideration of BS7671..
Then decide if or what to bond as appropriate...
Fill in & sign your certificate, with any relevant comments/observations/deviations you consider appropriate..
At the end of the day, it will only be if or when A.N.Other is seriously (or fatally) injured due to your electrical work , that someone will start questioning your judgment?
To ignore re-emerging pipes without any consideration of BS7671 shows a lack of understanding of the regs we work to IMHO..
Guinness
In a similar vein I'm intrigued by the attitude towards plastic fittings onto copper pipes .
We started off bonding water just above the main stop valve , this effectively covered all the pipework in a house and with gas done the same everyone seemed happy .
Then after some years we're on a domestic with the builder , I attached the 10mm in the prescribed position and returned to the floor above . The plumber joins us , cuts the pipe I just bonded & inserts a plastic tee , announcing that these are the future.
Not having seen them before , we even tested across the tee , knowing how "important" bonding is ...thinking there may be a jumper inside ...there is'nt . Like fools we put a jumper across , the plumber asked if we doing every one he fits ...answer erm..well no .
So after the tee was inserted all we had bonded was 2m of copper rising up to the floor above.
Being me , I made a call to the Electric Police who fobbed me off with " Why are you worrying about it ?" I made a few more enquiries to be told to just do my job , run the 10mm , bond above the stop tap , and ..apparently ... it doesn't matter anymore about the pipework throughout the job as I keep banging on about :C
It doesn't occur with gas as all the fittings are metallic ...but I notice that gas fitters often leave a card warning the customer that bonding should be installed , and have indeed been called in to do it .
We started off bonding water just above the main stop valve , this effectively covered all the pipework in a house and with gas done the same everyone seemed happy .
Then after some years we're on a domestic with the builder , I attached the 10mm in the prescribed position and returned to the floor above . The plumber joins us , cuts the pipe I just bonded & inserts a plastic tee , announcing that these are the future.
Not having seen them before , we even tested across the tee , knowing how "important" bonding is ...thinking there may be a jumper inside ...there is'nt . Like fools we put a jumper across , the plumber asked if we doing every one he fits ...answer erm..well no .
So after the tee was inserted all we had bonded was 2m of copper rising up to the floor above.
Being me , I made a call to the Electric Police who fobbed me off with " Why are you worrying about it ?" I made a few more enquiries to be told to just do my job , run the 10mm , bond above the stop tap , and ..apparently ... it doesn't matter anymore about the pipework throughout the job as I keep banging on about :C
It doesn't occur with gas as all the fittings are metallic ...but I notice that gas fitters often leave a card warning the customer that bonding should be installed , and have indeed been called in to do it .
had a house like that, plastic pipe joins everywhere, at least plumbers tend to use hepco through out these days apart from gas.
OK, as far as the gas "Regs" go, and that is the legal "regs" not some trumped up British Standard.
The Gas Safety Installation Use Regulations, require bonding to be installed in accordance with BS 7671.
That's that.
The requirement is to bond, extraneous-conductive-parts where they enter the equipotential zone, if they bring a potential into that zone, normally an earth potential, then they need to be bonded.
You can apply the 23k test, but that would simply show that it needs bonding as the impedance would be <23k.
The Gas Safety Installation Use Regulations, require bonding to be installed in accordance with BS 7671.
That's that.
The requirement is to bond, extraneous-conductive-parts where they enter the equipotential zone, if they bring a potential into that zone, normally an earth potential, then they need to be bonded.
You can apply the 23k test, but that would simply show that it needs bonding as the impedance would be <23k.
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Someone needs to tell the gas fitters around here about that then.
e.g the argument I had with the gas fitter who would not issue a landlords gas certificate because "the gas was not bonded" The meter was at the front of the house. The gas pipe ran all the way round on the outside of the building and entered at the back, where it was bonded. But the gas fitter insisted it was bonded within 600mm of the gas meter.
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Dave,
Just download a copy of the GSIUR and show him, it's law, so it's free, then go on the HSE website, and download the HSE ACOP L56, it's in both of them, that'll shut 'em up.
I used them in conjunction with as it happens the NICEIC pocket guide to bonding, which is quite useful, and is downloadable to shut up a British Gas guy, he was quite humbled when he found out he had been taught wrong, and had been wrong for many years!
Within 600mm of where it enters the property/zone then. The gas regs ask for within 300mm don't they?
Jono Pashley
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Right here we go.
The LAW regarding gas is "The Gas Safety (Installation & Use) Regulations 1998".
These are UK Statutory Instrument 1998 No 2451.
Located here:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1998/2451/contents/made
This is attached to this post.
These have been amended just last year by the following:
The Gas Safety (Installation and Use) (Amendment) Regulations 2018
This is UK Statutory Instrument 2018 No 0139.
This is attached to this post in PDF form, it was downloaded from here:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/139/pdfs/uksi_20180139_en.pdf
Earlier today.
OK the requirement for bonding under the gas requirements comes from Regulation 18 (2):
PART D
INSTALLATION PIPEWORK
Safe use of pipes 18.—
(2) Any person who connects any installation pipework to a primary meter shall, in any case where electrical equipotential bonding may be necessary, inform the responsible person that such bonding should be carried out by a competent person.
You are welcome to search the LAW for bond, and you will find that this is the ONLY reference to a permanent bond, Regulation 10 requires temporary bonding when work is undertaken to ensure electrical continuity of pipework.
The next relevant document is the HSE ACoP, L56.
This was updated in 2018 to reflect the change in law.
It is available here:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/l56.pdf
It is also attached to the post.
Here you will find guidance on Regulation 10 temporary bond during works and regulation 18 above.
If you refer to paragraph 200 you will see it says:
200 The location and routing of installation pipework should take into account the potential risk (eg of corrosion damage) posed by the other building services, equipment and features specified in regulation 18(1), for instance by providing adequate separation. Pipework installation and equipotential bonding should be carried out to the appropriate standard.
Then paragraphs 201 & 202 discuss this further:
201 Main equipotential bonding (MEB, sometimes known as ‘electrical cross bonding’) is the connection between the consumer earth point and the gas installation pipe. The purpose is to create a zone (eg within a dwelling), including the area occupied by the gas installation pipework, within which acceptable voltage differences are maintained to avoid the risk of electric shock.
202 The person who installs a section of pipework which connects with the primary meter or emergency control, whether or not the meter or control has yet been fitted, must inform the responsible person for the premises (builder, owner or occupier) of the possible need for MEB where such a requirement did not exist before the work was undertaken. Such bonding should be carried out by a competent person (see regulation 3, Qualification and supervision, for details on training and competence). The advice should be in writing. Although the regulation applies only when new systems are installed and existing ones are modified, similar action needs to be taken if an engineer notices an apparent defect in bonding in other circumstances, eg during maintenance checks (this applies to both main or supplementary equipotential bonding – see also paragraph 206).
Because this must be done, then paragraph 203 refers to new works, because the law says it must be done, so we should NEVER find it missing.
203 Main equipotential bonding is most commonly required where:
(a) gas pipework is installed in new premises; or
(b) gas pipework is first installed in existing premises.
204 to 207 finish this off.
204 The regulation is directed at the 600 mm (approximate) length of installation pipework at the outlet of the domestic meter installation which is the recommended location of any main equipotential bond in the appropriate standard.
205 The requirements for main equipotential bonding are more strict for certain types of electrical supply to premises (eg those supplies from protective multiple earth (PME) systems – most new electrical supplies will be from such systems). A gas engineer may not be competent to make the necessary judgement, in which case the responsible person needs to be informed of this fact and any further action left to them.
206 Regulation 18(2) does not apply to the installation of a meter. In addition to main bonding, supplementary equipotential pipework bonding may be necessary in locations of increased electric shock risk, eg bathrooms. In such cases, a competent electrician should be consulted.
207 In many commercial and other large sites where gas and electric meters may be remotely located, the bonding is not always possible within a 600 mm distance.
A competent electrician needs to consider what action is necessary in these cases.
The HSE ACOP states that a gas "engineer" may not be competent to define the requirements of bonding and that a competent electrician is required to do this.
Regulation 3 is mentioned in the above paragraphs with regard to competence, it relates to gas competence, not electrical.
Feel free to check.
HSE guidance on the law, in paragraph 200 requires pipework & bonding to be installed in accordance with the relevant standard.
I can't attach those as they are copyright BSI, however, they are:
Bonding: BS 7671
Gas Pipework: BS6891, "Specification for the installation and maintenance of low pressure gasp installation pipework of up to 35mm (R11/4) on premises
In BS 6891, Section 2 is Normative References, Normative means that they must be read in conjunction with this standard. BS 7671 is listed therein.
Thus, compliance with BS 6891 requires compliance with BS 7671, and the GSIUR ACOP requires that these standards are followed in the guidance paragraphs.
Remember that ACOPS have a special section in the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974, they have special legal status.
Section 8 in BS 6891 refers to temporary bonds which do not concern us, until we get to 8.4.3, on:
8.4.3 Main protective bonding conductor
8.4.3.1 A gas installation within a property with an electrical supply shall have a main protective bonding conductor connecting the pipework to the electrical installation’s main earth terminal, as specified in BS 7671.
COMMENTARY ON 8.4.3.1
The purpose of protective bonding is to create a zone in which voltage differences
through differing earth potentials are eliminated, and therefore hazards from electric shocks are minimized. This is achieved by connecting separate conductive components, such as the various metallic building services and structural steelwork, together with a main protective bonding conductor at the main earth terminal.
It is possible for stray currents to be transmitted through the gas pipework.
Therefore, to avoid electric shock or a spark which could ignite the gas, it is important to maintain electrical continuity in the pipework at all times.
8.4.3.2 The main protective bonding conductor (main equipotential bonding connection) shall be connected to the gas consumer’s fixed rigid pipework on the outlet of any primary meter installation, if fitted:
a) as near as is practicable to the point of entry into the premises;
b) before any branch in the pipework;
c) in a position where it is accessible and can be visually inspected and fitted with a warning label stating “Safety electrical connection. Do not remove.”;
and
d) by a mechanically and electrically sound connection which is not subject to corrosion.
The main protective bonding conductor (main equipotential bonding connection) shall not be directly connected to any pliable corrugated (stainless-steel) tube or pliable connectors from the outlet of the primary meter installation.
COMMENTARY ON 8.4.3.2
The main protective bonding conductor on the gas pipework should be made using cable with minimum cross-sectional area of 10 mm2 cable with green and yellow insulation, construction reference 6491X conforming to BS 6004.
For internal meters, for verification purposes the bonding connection should be within 600 mm of the meter outlet union.
For meters in outside meter boxes/compartments, the bonding connection should preferably be inside the premises and within 600 mm of the point of entry of the pipework into the premises.
Alternatively, the connection can be made within the box/compartment, but it is essential that the bonding cable does not interfere with the integrity of the box/compartment and the sealing of any sleeve (see Figure 8).
For guidance on equipotential bonding in multi-dwelling buildings see IGEM/GM/5 [26].
When relocating a meter, an existing main protective bond conductor might be satisfactory as found, or it might need to be altered. Where the bonding conductor requires altering, any alterations should be carried out by an electrically competent person, and inspected and tested in accordance with BS 7671. The bonding connection may be considered satisfactory if the requirements of 8.4.3.1 are met.
Now a few things come out of that, that the bond needs to be INSIDE the premises and it is down to an electrically competent person to decide, and that this needs to be in accordance with BS 7671.
It seems to me that the gas fitters need to shut up and learn what is required.
QED I think?
View attachment l56-GSIUR2018.pdf
View attachment uksi_19982451 GS(I&U)R.pdf
View attachment uksi_20180139_en GS(I&U)R-Amd-2018.pdf
The LAW regarding gas is "The Gas Safety (Installation & Use) Regulations 1998".
These are UK Statutory Instrument 1998 No 2451.
Located here:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1998/2451/contents/made
This is attached to this post.
These have been amended just last year by the following:
The Gas Safety (Installation and Use) (Amendment) Regulations 2018
This is UK Statutory Instrument 2018 No 0139.
This is attached to this post in PDF form, it was downloaded from here:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/139/pdfs/uksi_20180139_en.pdf
Earlier today.
OK the requirement for bonding under the gas requirements comes from Regulation 18 (2):
PART D
INSTALLATION PIPEWORK
Safe use of pipes 18.—
(2) Any person who connects any installation pipework to a primary meter shall, in any case where electrical equipotential bonding may be necessary, inform the responsible person that such bonding should be carried out by a competent person.
You are welcome to search the LAW for bond, and you will find that this is the ONLY reference to a permanent bond, Regulation 10 requires temporary bonding when work is undertaken to ensure electrical continuity of pipework.
The next relevant document is the HSE ACoP, L56.
This was updated in 2018 to reflect the change in law.
It is available here:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/l56.pdf
It is also attached to the post.
Here you will find guidance on Regulation 10 temporary bond during works and regulation 18 above.
If you refer to paragraph 200 you will see it says:
200 The location and routing of installation pipework should take into account the potential risk (eg of corrosion damage) posed by the other building services, equipment and features specified in regulation 18(1), for instance by providing adequate separation. Pipework installation and equipotential bonding should be carried out to the appropriate standard.
Then paragraphs 201 & 202 discuss this further:
201 Main equipotential bonding (MEB, sometimes known as ‘electrical cross bonding’) is the connection between the consumer earth point and the gas installation pipe. The purpose is to create a zone (eg within a dwelling), including the area occupied by the gas installation pipework, within which acceptable voltage differences are maintained to avoid the risk of electric shock.
202 The person who installs a section of pipework which connects with the primary meter or emergency control, whether or not the meter or control has yet been fitted, must inform the responsible person for the premises (builder, owner or occupier) of the possible need for MEB where such a requirement did not exist before the work was undertaken. Such bonding should be carried out by a competent person (see regulation 3, Qualification and supervision, for details on training and competence). The advice should be in writing. Although the regulation applies only when new systems are installed and existing ones are modified, similar action needs to be taken if an engineer notices an apparent defect in bonding in other circumstances, eg during maintenance checks (this applies to both main or supplementary equipotential bonding – see also paragraph 206).
Because this must be done, then paragraph 203 refers to new works, because the law says it must be done, so we should NEVER find it missing.
203 Main equipotential bonding is most commonly required where:
(a) gas pipework is installed in new premises; or
(b) gas pipework is first installed in existing premises.
204 to 207 finish this off.
204 The regulation is directed at the 600 mm (approximate) length of installation pipework at the outlet of the domestic meter installation which is the recommended location of any main equipotential bond in the appropriate standard.
205 The requirements for main equipotential bonding are more strict for certain types of electrical supply to premises (eg those supplies from protective multiple earth (PME) systems – most new electrical supplies will be from such systems). A gas engineer may not be competent to make the necessary judgement, in which case the responsible person needs to be informed of this fact and any further action left to them.
206 Regulation 18(2) does not apply to the installation of a meter. In addition to main bonding, supplementary equipotential pipework bonding may be necessary in locations of increased electric shock risk, eg bathrooms. In such cases, a competent electrician should be consulted.
207 In many commercial and other large sites where gas and electric meters may be remotely located, the bonding is not always possible within a 600 mm distance.
A competent electrician needs to consider what action is necessary in these cases.
The HSE ACOP states that a gas "engineer" may not be competent to define the requirements of bonding and that a competent electrician is required to do this.
Regulation 3 is mentioned in the above paragraphs with regard to competence, it relates to gas competence, not electrical.
Feel free to check.
HSE guidance on the law, in paragraph 200 requires pipework & bonding to be installed in accordance with the relevant standard.
I can't attach those as they are copyright BSI, however, they are:
Bonding: BS 7671
Gas Pipework: BS6891, "Specification for the installation and maintenance of low pressure gasp installation pipework of up to 35mm (R11/4) on premises
In BS 6891, Section 2 is Normative References, Normative means that they must be read in conjunction with this standard. BS 7671 is listed therein.
Thus, compliance with BS 6891 requires compliance with BS 7671, and the GSIUR ACOP requires that these standards are followed in the guidance paragraphs.
Remember that ACOPS have a special section in the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974, they have special legal status.
Section 8 in BS 6891 refers to temporary bonds which do not concern us, until we get to 8.4.3, on:
8.4.3 Main protective bonding conductor
8.4.3.1 A gas installation within a property with an electrical supply shall have a main protective bonding conductor connecting the pipework to the electrical installation’s main earth terminal, as specified in BS 7671.
COMMENTARY ON 8.4.3.1
The purpose of protective bonding is to create a zone in which voltage differences
through differing earth potentials are eliminated, and therefore hazards from electric shocks are minimized. This is achieved by connecting separate conductive components, such as the various metallic building services and structural steelwork, together with a main protective bonding conductor at the main earth terminal.
It is possible for stray currents to be transmitted through the gas pipework.
Therefore, to avoid electric shock or a spark which could ignite the gas, it is important to maintain electrical continuity in the pipework at all times.
8.4.3.2 The main protective bonding conductor (main equipotential bonding connection) shall be connected to the gas consumer’s fixed rigid pipework on the outlet of any primary meter installation, if fitted:
a) as near as is practicable to the point of entry into the premises;
b) before any branch in the pipework;
c) in a position where it is accessible and can be visually inspected and fitted with a warning label stating “Safety electrical connection. Do not remove.”;
and
d) by a mechanically and electrically sound connection which is not subject to corrosion.
The main protective bonding conductor (main equipotential bonding connection) shall not be directly connected to any pliable corrugated (stainless-steel) tube or pliable connectors from the outlet of the primary meter installation.
COMMENTARY ON 8.4.3.2
The main protective bonding conductor on the gas pipework should be made using cable with minimum cross-sectional area of 10 mm2 cable with green and yellow insulation, construction reference 6491X conforming to BS 6004.
For internal meters, for verification purposes the bonding connection should be within 600 mm of the meter outlet union.
For meters in outside meter boxes/compartments, the bonding connection should preferably be inside the premises and within 600 mm of the point of entry of the pipework into the premises.
Alternatively, the connection can be made within the box/compartment, but it is essential that the bonding cable does not interfere with the integrity of the box/compartment and the sealing of any sleeve (see Figure 8).
For guidance on equipotential bonding in multi-dwelling buildings see IGEM/GM/5 [26].
When relocating a meter, an existing main protective bond conductor might be satisfactory as found, or it might need to be altered. Where the bonding conductor requires altering, any alterations should be carried out by an electrically competent person, and inspected and tested in accordance with BS 7671. The bonding connection may be considered satisfactory if the requirements of 8.4.3.1 are met.
Now a few things come out of that, that the bond needs to be INSIDE the premises and it is down to an electrically competent person to decide, and that this needs to be in accordance with BS 7671.
It seems to me that the gas fitters need to shut up and learn what is required.
QED I think?
View attachment l56-GSIUR2018.pdf
View attachment uksi_19982451 GS(I&U)R.pdf
View attachment uksi_20180139_en GS(I&U)R-Amd-2018.pdf
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Jono Pashley
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There is no think its in black and white. If gas chimp doesnt like it he can ask an appropriate adult to read the gas regs too him
Rob_the_rich
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Refer them to latest Gas Industry Unsafe Situations Procedure Here (specifically to 3.3.2) ie There is a duty to inform the responsible person in writing. We were advised in training recently to preferably get a signature to prove they received the bonding notice. That is it though, it is not "At Risk" nor "Immediately Dangerous" (there is no "Not to current standards" classification any more as can be seen in the above document)
Copper pipe CSA
15mm = 18.3mm²
22mm = 27.2mm²
28mm = 46.8mm²
Based on standard 0.4mm wall thickness for pipes up to 28mm
15mm = 18.3mm²
22mm = 27.2mm²
28mm = 46.8mm²
Based on standard 0.4mm wall thickness for pipes up to 28mm
Rob_the_rich
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Looking at this document the old table X pipes had walls 0.7mm for 15mm and 0.9mm for 22 and 28mm
I get CSA of 15mm at 31.4mm2
22mm at 59.6mm2
and 28mm at 76.6mm2
Looking at this document the old table X pipes had walls 0.7mm for 15mm and 0.9mm for 22 and 28mm
I get CSA of 15mm at 31.4mm2
22mm at 59.6mm2
and 28mm at 76.6mm2
I stand corrected, but the CSA of contiguous copper pipe is far higher than the CSA of BS7671 requirements for gas bonding. There is also the matter of copper purity and conductivity, this is negligible.
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The ultimate argument for considering the pipe a far better condcutor than any ruddy bond especially where the pipe pops up and down through the floor.
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