BS7671 17th my views

[unphased]

I am going to attempt to explain my thoughts on how the regs can be simplified but it ain't gonna be easy. Nevertheless I hope it will go someway to making myself understood.

The regulations require materials to be manufactured to British Standards and Euronorms. Right. So the regs contain a list of all the relevant British Standards and Euronorms. Understanding that manufacturers need to make their materilas and euipment meet the rese requirements should be sufficinet to exclude any further reference to it.

Example, when we fill in a test certificate we list the BS reference of the circuit protective device. Say BS 60898. The circuit protective characteristics of this device are tabled. and identify disconnection times dependent upon type B, C or D. The requirement to meet manufacturing standards is the BS EN 60898. Yes? The type required to comply with circuit characteristics is the part we really need. Yes? So why not simplify ths as mcb type B (or C or D)?

Another example. The cut-out fuse. We need to record what it is. BS88 or BS1361 type IIb. Again, the manufacturing standard is the BS88 or BS1361 part. The electricians requirement is to know the disconnection chracteristics and that it is a cartridge fuse. So simplify to cartridge fuse 100A, 80A 60A. BS7671 already requires that the fuse is manufactured to the relevant code so does it need to be mentioned again?

Sockets, manufactured to a certain BS. If the regs require sockets to be manufactured to that BS then why refer to it in the rg. It just needs to be mentioned nce in the main list and thereafter referred to as a socket.

BS3036 is the only standard related to rerwireable fuses. So again the manufacturing BS is 3036, the electrical reference is rewireable fuse. It doesn't need to be referenced as a 3036 on the test sheets.

Can anyone see where i am coming from? Do we really need endless reference to british standards or just one refeence and be done with it? I am not trying to re-write the regs in this thread, just trying to get a point across.

 

[steptoe]

unphased, in theory what you are talking about 'could' be workable for a normal domestic installation,

I think com/ind need more clarification,

maybe have a little mini regs book for the 5WW and limit them to DI only. :|

 

[sb_89]

Yes that's perfect! Let's dumb down our trade so even more under qualified morons can join in ! rather than 'dumbing down' the regs, just learn to read and interpret them properly.

I propose we make it harder, let's get rid of multiple choice exams, ie the 17th, make people actually work and study to pass them. Then maybe they could read them as they were intended

The regs have to cover many technical issues, not just domestic installations

 

[Evans Electric]

In ancient times the church held power over the people by waffling on in Latin which only they understood . The people were duly impressed and did as they were told.

The Royal Courts and Parliament waffled on in French, this kept the working classes and lower orders in their place and ignorant as to what was going on .

In our trade its called Bull $ hitt . Some people have a penchant for remembering Reg. Numbers , BS numbers and start to talk in that manner . They become assessors or Clerks of Works

So a specification may say " Imm.Htrs to be connected in 13183TQ51.5" . Whereas a Sparks would say ...Butyl.

And I don't know if it was my own stupidity but I found a few questions for the 17th exam thing threw me on first reading , due , I think perhaps to modern perception of logic , I don't know .

Forget the actual examples now but on the lines of :-

"Which of the following is not the position of the handle of a Fireman's Switch when it is not in the open position ?"

Or just to make you get one wrong :-

" What size must the lettering be on a BS earth clamp ? " Like anyone gives a shyte .

 

[sb_89]

Reductio ad absurdum , thats Latin for you. And it sums up your argument quite nicely lol .

( non of the rest of this is aimed at you Evans, more the 5ww types )

Look we don't expect everyone to know everything, but if you claim to be a professional, reading and understanding the regs is what you do for a living. If you don't know the answer you should be able to open the book and find out.

 

[steptoe]

Yes that's perfect! Let's dumb down our trade so even more under qualified morons can join in ! rather than 'dumbing down' the regs, just learn to read and interpret them properly. I propose we make it harder, let's get rid of multiple choice exams, ie the 17th, make people actually work and study to pass them. Then maybe they could read them as they were intended

The regs have to cover many technical issues, not just domestic installations

they are already here,!!!

 

[ProDave]

My favourite is to list the BS number of the DNO's fuse.

But the bl@%%& thing is sealed. How can I tell what type and rating fuse is actually in there?

I know, It says BS1361 type IIb 100A on the fuse carrier, so It MUST be that type and rating fitted, it can't possibly be any other type inside can it?

As you say w.t.f does it really matter?

 

[Steve3948]

My favourite is to list the BS number of the DNO's fuse.But the bl@%%& thing is sealed. How can I tell what type and rating fuse is actually in there?

I know, It says BS1361 type IIb 100A on the fuse carrier, so It MUST be that type and rating fitted, it can't possibly be any other type inside can it?

As you say w.t.f does it really matter?

Easy cut the seal, pull it out and have a look.

In my area that gave Electricians who were Approved blue plastic seals, they gave each contractor 1000 each, I still have about 700.

The thing is they have changed names and all sorts now but I still use them when I need to and nobody has ever passed comment.

 

[davetheglitz]

Just a quick thought for the Moderators - this thread and Unphased's other thread seem to be converging. Is there any chance we could merge the relevant parts here?

Thanks

 

[Manator]

I have noticed, however the subject core is different enough that at the moment it would be OK to keep separate. If it becomes far too blurred around the edges then a possible merge could be an option.

 

[unphased]

Yes that's perfect! Let's dumb down our trade so even more under qualified morons can join in ! rather than 'dumbing down' the regs, just learn to read and interpret them properly. I propose we make it harder, let's get rid of multiple choice exams, ie the 17th, make people actually work and study to pass them. Then maybe they could read them as they were intended

The regs have to cover many technical issues, not just domestic installations

Thats not what I am contemplating, sb, although it is fair comment. What I am advocating would take a considerable amount of skill to do. That is to include all the information within the current format but write it in a way which is more readily digested. Less of a legislative format and more of a code of practice.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 20:28 ---------- Previous post was made at 20:17 ----------

unphased, in theory what you are talking about 'could' be workable for a normal domestic installation,I think com/ind need more clarification,

maybe have a little mini regs book for the 5WW and limit them to DI only. :|

I think your comment has scope. I would welcome a separate set of domestic electrical regulations to satisfy a need in that sector. The domestic sector is very important. Many electricians work solely in that sector and it would be fantastic to have a stand alone reference material covering every aspect of the domestic field. I think this could be workable and is certainly achievable. It would also harmonise nicely with Part P, which is concerned only with dwellings. Interesting point steptoe. Electricians would then have a choiice whether to work in big industrial environments or commercial environments or just in the domestic field. Perhaps doing this would enable more harmony in the industry and encourage skill sets applicable to Part P and skill sets applicable to other aspects. I like it.

 

[steptoe]

Thats not what I am contemplating, sb, although it is fair comment. What I am advocating would take a considerable amount of skill to do. That is to include all the information within the current format but write it in a way which is more readily digested. Less of a legislative format and more of a code of practice.---------- Post Auto-Merged at 20:28 ---------- Previous post was made at 20:17 ----------

I think your comment has scope. I would welcome a separate set of domestic electrical regulations to satisfy a need in that sector. The domestic sector is very important. Many electricians work solely in that sector and it would be fantastic to have a stand alone reference material covering every aspect of the domestic field. I think this could be workable and is certainly achievable. It would also harmonise nicely with Part P, which is concerned only with dwellings. Interesting point steptoe. Electricians would then have a choiice whether to work in big industrial environments or commercial environments or just in the domestic field. Perhaps doing this would enable more harmony in the industry and encourage skill sets applicable to Part P and skill sets applicable to other aspects. I like it.

:slap

can you use an index?

thats enough skills, here is your part P certificate,

you can call yourself an electrician now!!! :slap

 

[Manator]

What you are proposing is not really a new idea, there was some talk many years ago about a restructure of the classifications of electricians to reflect the type and areas of work.

The implications at that time discussed the possibility of a divide within the industry and further discussions whilst ensued were not implemented or discussed as viable at that time. The JIB system was considered to be suitable and no need to replace. Now? well perhaps.

The regulations in this country have adapted over the years not only to accept new technologies but to embrace our commitment for harmonisation with CENELEC, the present president is actually English so we can not say that our European friends are dictating again.

The regulation book is a reference book and it constantly refers to other reference material, the use of such should always be read not end to end but to check a certain content and if need be cross referenced to other data.

 

[steptoe]

perhaps bring out an OSG as such for the 5WW & part P installers to use for domestic only.

actually, the OSG covers most of that already, doesnt it,? maybe just expand it a bit.

 

[springcrocus]

perhaps bring out an OSG as such for the 5WW & part P installers to use for domestic only.actually, the OSG covers most of that already, doesnt it,? maybe just expand it a bit.

That's what I thought the OSG was for. The wiring regs are for those that generally know what they're doing, the OSG is for those who don't know what they're doing!.

 

[unphased]

Maybe this will demonstrate my thoughts. This is how the regulations are written.

511.6.7.999.1 Wiring complying with BASEC pvc/pvc insulated and sheathed, not including 556.888.2.3 where BS768999 applies shall not be used where Table 67abbc applies. See also appendix 4 and Section 2.

How they should be written.

511.6

a. Wiring not complying with british standards shall not be used.

Get it?

 

[Doc Hudson]

Maybe this will demonstrate my thoughts. This is how the regulations are written.
511.6.7.999.1 Wiring complying with BASEC pvc/pvc insulated and sheathed, not including 556.888.2.3 where BS768999 applies shall not be used where Table 67abbc applies. See also appendix 4 and Section 2.

How they should be written.

511.6

a. Wiring not complying with british standards shall not be used.

Get it?

No this is not how regulations are written. This is a made up, non existent regulation, as such it is an irrelevant example which carries no relevance or input to any topic under discussion. There is absolutely no point any member making up artificial regulations to try and put their point across. The fact that you are using this as an illustration, possibly indicates a major flaw in your views. (For what it is worth, section 511 carries no reference to any BS numbers but does say thing like complying with applicable british standards!)

Doc H.

 

[unphased]

One of the elements of the regs which I find difficult to agree with. (That's diplomatic enough I think. ; \ ).

Cables in insulation can overheat if not derated.

Insulation prevents or inhibits the passage of heat. Under normal use a cable can get luke warm, maybe slightly warm, but hot? For heat to be generated in a cable to a point where it will cause concern the cable has to be overloaded, or under continuous load over a long period. If it isn't then I cannot see how excessive heat, hot enough to cause damage, be it in insulation or not, can cause the need to increase the size of a cable (derate it). If you generate 30A of current in a 1.0mm2 cable it would clearly overheat. When you increase the cable size, more copper, less resistance, current flows nicely, no heat. Taking the same current in a 1.0mm2 cable in insulation the heat generated cannot dissipate so the damage is catastrophic and happens quicker. But, say the 30A current is flowing in a 4.0mm2 cable which gets warm, does the presence of insulation cause a heating increase? Like an oven increases in temperature and keeps getting hotter until the stat cuts the power. Does insulation trap heat and increase heat or can it maintain a constant temperature?

Does anybody know what research was carried out, or is being carried out for that matter, on the behaviour of cables in insulated materials? This would definitely have been a research topic of mine for a project at uni. I know that the theory behind cables in insulation requires that cables are larger than would otherwise be required to decrease heating effect, but how real is this theory in practice? I know that the BRE carried out some tests on cables in insulation and the results showed no significant increase in heat from those not in insulation. Was this research ignored in recent reg updates or was it dismissed anyway?

 

[Doc Hudson]

Put aside the insulation part of your statement and answer one simple question. Did you understand and agree with the concept of rating factors for grouped cables, say in trunking, conduit or on a tray where cables inside a bunch have no free air around them. yes or no? Yes will answer your own question for you. No would imply a lack of basic electrical knowledge and understanding.

Doc H.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 09:35 ---------- Previous post was made at 09:27 ----------

We try and discourage members from posting duplicate threads or threads of near identical content or topic as it just clutters the forum for other members. As you appear to be starting several threads about your dissatisfaction with BS7671, either in how its written, interpreted, applied or just misunderstood.I have merged them back onto one thread. Many of you points interrelate between the threads and put your perspective into better context.

Doc H.

 

[safedepth]

unphased, in theory what you are talking about 'could' be workable for a normal domestic installation,I think com/ind need more clarification,

maybe have a little mini regs book for the 5WW and limit them to DI only. :|

Is that not what the OSG is supposed to do?