C1 C2 C3 codes help

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

I think this brings us back to the response you get when you complain to the NI about other contractors work, their standard response seems to be that it is down to the customer to make a complaint, not another spark, and this for me is where it is all wrong, for example.

Example is irrelevant....

All this shows, once again how little people understand about the reality of contract law and complaints and disputes...

Any dispute is between the purchaser of some goods or services and the provider of the goods or services..

It is not a complex concept to grasp!!

If a customer is not willing to complain then whoever you want to complain to will have no legal access to see the work you want to dispute..

Thus can do sod all!!  

[ just as the NIC etc would not have access, or be able to investigate your claims or prove anything, so would be just wasting time & money trying to do so. ]

Again not to complex a concept to grasp..

AND.. if the customer will not testify, or has no copy of a contract, stating that the alleged work was carried out by A.N.Other...

Then Mr A.N.Other spark, doesn't actually have very much to defend! 

[  So once again NIC or whoever, cannot do much, or prove much, so would just be wasting time and money ]

All too often people moan about NIC being powerless...  

But I think you will find Trading Standards, or anyone else are all in the same legal boat...

e.g.

Purchaser complains about supplier of something or other..

Not friend or mate or brother-in-law, OR other contractor, complaining on behalf of purchaser of something else..

As they are NOT directly involved in  the contract, (written or verbal), they can do jack all!!!

I've lost count of the number of times over the years on here, this concept about being unable to complain about other contractors has come up...

But to summarise it....

Unless you are the Purchaser or Provider of some work...

OR you have been requested to act as an expert witness on behalf of either party....

Then you can huff and puff and moan as much as you like...

But you will get no-where as the Law is the Law!

If my mate bought a dangerous car from a garage... I couldn't have any legal involvement or action over the car... Only my mate and Garage.  (supplier & purchaser) 

Just as I cannot complain about work done by someone else in someone else's property, As I have no direct involvement with any of it!

I really don't understand why some electricians assume the law can work differently for electrical work compared to the supply of any other Goods or Services?

:C  

 

[phil d]

The point I was making was this, in the example of a car, if you buy a car and it has just passed it's mot, , but lets imagine that you know nothing about cars, and you don't realise that those brake  pipes shouldn't be almost rusted through, or those holes in the chassis, really shouldn't be there.  now if I ring VOSA on your behalf and explain that you know very little about cars, but you've bought this one, with a new MOT and it has a number of faults that mean it should have failed the test, VOSA will want to inspect the car, and, if they agree with me, they'll take action against the garage issuing the MOT. Sadly a certain organisation concerned with the electrical industry, will only deal with Joe Public, then asks technical questions, which they don't understand.

My original point was that WE as professionals need to police ourselves, as I said in my earlier post, as long as the accessories are level, then most people think the installation is correct, because they have no idea of the rules and regs that we must comply with. If we as professionals discover someone is carrying out shoddy and dangerous work, then is it not our duty as professionals to bring this to the attention of that persons governing body, if we fail to do this, does that not make us as bad as the person who has carried out the work?

 

[Andy™]

My original point was that WE as professionals need to police ourselves,

does that mean i can start locking up people for dodgy work? do i get a dog to assist catching them?

 

[phil d]

does that mean i can start locking up people for dodgy work? do i get a dog to assist catching them?

You know what I mean, if you come across some dodgy work and don't bring it to the attention of someone, then surely that makes you no better than the cowboy who carried it out. Plus, it has the potential to make you look bad later, spark 1 comes in to do a job and makes a mess of it, spark 2 comes in to do some other work, see's what spark 1 has done, but says nothing, spark 3 comes in, see's the shoddy work done by number 1, and mentions it to the client. Client then wonders why spark 2 didn't mention anything being wrong, and then starts to wonder if spark 2 was actually any good. At the end of the day, I don't make a habit of slagging other people off, but if they do carp work then they deserve it.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

The point I was making was this, in the example of a car, if you buy a car and it has just passed it's mot, , but lets imagine that you know nothing about cars, and you don't realise that those brake  pipes shouldn't be almost rusted through, or those holes in the chassis, really shouldn't be there.  now if I ring VOSA on your behalf and explain that you know very little about cars, but you've bought this one, with a new MOT and it has a number of faults that mean it should have failed the test, VOSA will want to inspect the car, and, if they agree with me, they'll take action against the garage issuing the MOT. 

Still wrong. 

If you have a complaint about an MOT, Then someone with a legitimate interest in the MOT complaint must fill in form VT17 and send it off to DVSA..

The Garages do not issue MOT's as the Nominated Testers and Authorised examiners are working independently of the physical test station they may be working at..

It is the testers/examiners who are complained against NOT a garage.

either way... without a legitimate interest in the vehicle once again very little will actually happen!

opcorn  

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

You know what I mean, if you come across some dodgy work and don't bring it to the attention of someone, then surely that makes you no better than the cowboy who carried it out. Plus, it has the potential to make you look bad later, spark 1 comes in to do a job and makes a mess of it, spark 2 comes in to do some other work, see's what spark 1 has done, but says nothing, spark 3 comes in, see's the shoddy work done by number 1, and mentions it to the client. Client then wonders why spark 2 didn't mention anything being wrong, and then starts to wonder if spark 2 was actually any good. At the end of the day, I don't make a habit of slagging other people off, but if they do carp work then they deserve it.

Another very unrealistic hypothetical example....

Reality is that 99.99999999999% of the time we have absolutely no idea or proof about who did or didn't do some previous work at an installation....

UNLESS the customer volunteers that information and is willing to offer proof that the alleged poor work was done by the said cowboy...

We are responsible for ANY work we do, NOT the whole installation.. (Unless it happens to be a full rewire or new-build)..

So all aspects of an installation that relate directly to any additions or alterations we do WILL be correct and in compliance with current regs...

If we do happen to notice some areas of concern, on other parts of an installation not directly related to the areas you have been working on,

then you would just bring this to the attention of an authorised person at the installation (preferably in writing), and leave them to decide if they wish to take further action...

As basically it is NOT my responsibility if a customer is happy keeping some dodgy wiring done by someone else..

My electrical certificate will state clearly the work I have done and the test results confirming that my part of the installation is all installed and tested and fully compliant with current regs.

Absolutely no point trying to bring to justice someone for doing some work you cannot prove without the backing and help of the customer who originally ordered the work.

Guinness

 

[phil d]

Another very unrealistic hypothetical example....

Reality is that 99.99999999999% of the time we have absolutely no idea or proof about who did or didn't do some previous work at an installation....

UNLESS the customer volunteers that information and is willing to offer proof that the alleged poor work was done by the said cowboy...

We are responsible for ANY work we do, NOT the whole installation.. (Unless it happens to be a full rewire or new-build)..

So all aspects of an installation that relate directly to any additions or alterations we do WILL be correct and in compliance with current regs...

If we do happen to notice some areas of concern, on other parts of an installation not directly related to the areas you have been working on,

then you would just bring this to the attention of an authorised person at the installation (preferably in writing), and leave them to decide if they wish to take further action...

As basically it is NOT my responsibility if a customer is happy keeping some dodgy wiring done by someone else..

My electrical certificate will state clearly the work I have done and the test results confirming that my part of the installation is all installed and tested and fully compliant with current regs.

Absolutely no point trying to bring to justice someone for doing some work you cannot prove without the backing and help of the customer who originally ordered the work.

Guinness

I agree with what you are saying, but, quite recently  I had done a couple of small jobs for a friend, he rang up a couple of weeks later and asked if I could help his parents out, they were having a new kitchen fitted and the spark they normally used was busy, would I help?

I went over and to be honest it was nothing major, move a couple of sockets, add 2 new ones, change a light fitting, as I removed a socket I noticed 3 sets of cables in the box, nothing unusual there, but, as I chased the cable back up the wall I found a joint, made with terminal block, wrapped in plastic and plastered in! The homeowner told me that they'd had some sockets added 2 years ago by this other electrician, and these were they, also at the same time they'd had a consumer unit replaced because the old one wasn't safe!

It turned out he'd not only bodged the joint in the wall, but had 3 twin sockets off one spur, had joined the 6mm cooker cable, again in the wall, and again with terminal blocks!

Then the guy asked if I would relocate his bathroom lightswitch while I was there, he'd been meaning to get around to it ever since the other electrician had told him that having a pullswitch in a bathroom was illegal!

I then asked about the consumer unit, why had it been replaced, and what was there previously, ( I had a good idea, knowing the age of the property) the customer replied that it had been one of those "brown things made of wood and plastic with fuses in, (Wylex) again the other electrician had said this was illegal,not only that, but it provided absolutely no protection against electric shock!

In it's place, for a fee of several hundred pounds, he'd fitted a nice new plastic Hager board, comprising of one main isolator, 6 mcb's and no rcd's whatsoever!

The customer wasn't very happy with this as you'd expect, suffice to say that sometime in the new year, I'll be fitting a proper consumer unit, with rcd protection, have a happy customer who not only trusts me, but is more than happy to recommend me to their friends.

I don't have anything against anybody making a living, but to charge top rate and then do bodged work, is not on.