cables behind architraves/doorcasings

[ProDave]

I think the important thing from this, is while it's wrong to run cables outside safe zones and none of us would to that now, you WILL find cables there. Either from recent installs flouting the rules, or from old installs where people didn't care.

So IF you are trimming off the bottom of a door architrave, do so with caution. Don't use a jig saw that penetrates deep behind the architrave, instead use a mulitmaster and cut very carefully so you only just cut through it.

If there's ANY doubt (i.e light switch is tight up to architrave) turn off at least the lighting circuits in the house before cutting the architrave.

The OP said in post #1 "I just cut through another live wire while undercutting a doorcasing"

So although he knows wires should not be there, he also knows that in the real world, they often are. So needs to assume cables ARE there and it's not safe to cut with a tool that cuts too deep.

 

[wood fitter]

I think the important thing from this, is while it's wrong to run cables outside safe zones and none of us would to that now, you WILL find cables there. Either from recent installs flouting the rules, or from old installs where people didn't care.So IF you are trimming off the bottom of a door architrave, do so with caution. Don't use a jig saw that penetrates deep behind the architrave, instead use a mulitmaster and cut very carefully so you only just cut through it.

If there's ANY doubt (i.e light switch is tight up to architrave) turn off at least the lighting circuits in the house before cutting the architrave.

The OP said in post #1 "I just cut through another live wire while undercutting a doorcasing"

So although he knows wires should not be there, he also knows that in the real world, they often are. So needs to assume cables ARE there and it's not safe to cut with a tool that cuts too deep.

I cut through around 1 electric cable per year. I cut around 2000 architraves/door-jambs per year. The majority don't have cables behind

On a couple of occasions the wires have been big ones (shower/cooker), no lightswitches or sockets to warn me off the possibility of cables

I used to use a multimaster for my undercutting but that will jerk through the wood and quickly cut a cable, blowing the tip off the saw. I now use a jamb saw (looks like an angle grinder) which can be set for depth of cut. However the blade has to be set a couple of mm beyond the thickness of material to allow for uneven surfaces.

The irony is on this particular job (a hallway in laminate), I was asked to re-locate the trap to the crawl space to a cupboard under the stairs. I was told by the client that it probably wouldn't be necessary as the house had just been rewired. The new fuse box was in that cupboard under the stairs complete with the installers NIC sticker. Whilst I was using my multimaster to finish off the cuts to the floorboards (prior to preparing the doorcasings) the certificate of compliance was vibrated from somewhere behind me and fell right in front of my face. That's why I assumed on this occasion that the doorcasings would be free of wires.

I refer back to my comment about using 25mm screws in 18mm of doorlining (I hung the doors in that same property)

 

[ProDave]

I refer back to my comment about using 25mm screws in 18mm of doorlining (I hung the doors in that same property)

I'm not a carpenter, but I normally use screws that are no longer than what I am screwing into.

If the door liner was tight up to a brick wall, your over long screws would have bottomed out on the brickwork and gone no further, stripping the "thread" in the wood, leaving you to fit an over size (over diameter) screw to make good the mistake.

What's your reasoning for using a screw that you know is too long and you know will penetrate out of the other side of the door liner?

 

[wood fitter]

that doesn't really answer my question. Was I wrong to assume the very recently rewired and certificated property would have no wires in the doorcasings?

 

[ProDave]

that doesn't really answer my question. Was I wrong to assume the very recently rewired and certificated property would have no wires in the doorcasings?

Never Assume.

Assume makes an Ass of U and Me

Perhaps unscrew the switch plate. If the wires exit the switch box at the side then they might well be going down behind the architrave.

Why not remove the architrave, cut it and re fit it?

We face the same dilemma frequently when cutting floor boards to lift them. You just never know what's JUST underneath the surface. cables, water pipe, gas pipe? who knows.

 

[Badger]

I'm not a carpenter, but I normally use screws that are no longer than what I am screwing into.If the door liner was tight up to a brick wall, your over long screws would have bottomed out on the brickwork and gone no further, stripping the "thread" in the wood, leaving you to fit an over size (over diameter) screw to make good the mistake.

What's your reasoning for using a screw that you know is too long and you know will penetrate out of the other side of the door liner?

probably so the door casing can be fixed in place :slap :innocent] :coat

 

[wood fitter]

that doesn't really answer my question. Was I wrong to assume the very recently rewired and certificated property would have no wires in the doorcasings?

 

[Badger]

all i can say i never assume anything on site anymore

 

[Evans Electric]

that doesn't really answer my question. Was I wrong to assume the very recently rewired and certificated property would have no wires in the doorcasings?

As Dave and The Badger say, you can't assume anything, even if it is rewired and certified. You could assume that the guy who rewired and certified the job knows where the "Safe zones" are , but you'd be wrong in this case.

Much like myself rewiring a guest house in Wales , in the middle of a plastered wall in a utility room, about 4ft FFL I drill two holes for a twin moulded box, water gushes from the second hole , much to my suprise!!

A water pipe was installed , flush in wall, running diagonally from the top left corner to the bottom right corner and out to the outside toilet. I had wrongly assumed that the plumbing would follow the same rules and codes of practice as what I'm used to.

In this area a water pipe would never be installed in that way , it would have been surface , probably boxed in .

 

[ProDave]

I'm still waiting for an explanation of the thought process that leads you to think that using a screw too long for the job is correct practice.

 

[wood fitter]

I thought the whole point of the safe zones was to protect the end user and other trades.

Is the 17th edition just a set of recommendations, i don't think so.

Should the rewiring electrician note any departures? Should he inform the client? Should the electrician re-route any wires in non safe zones, if he's rewiring.

Should my client be worried about any other departures, that haven't been noted?

 

[ProDave]

I'm still waiting for an explanation of the thought process that leads you to think that using a screw too long for the job is correct practice.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 20:09 ---------- Previous post was made at 19:58 ----------

I thought the whole point of the safe zones was to protect the end user and other trades.Is the 17th edition just a set of recommendations, i don't think so.

Should the rewiring electrician note any departures? Should he inform the client? Should the electrician re-route any wires in non safe zones, if he's rewiring.

Should my client be worried about any other departures, that haven't been noted?

Yes, if everybody applied the wiring regs 100% then you would be safe.

BUT there will always be cowboys, DIYers that bend the rules for the sake of being easy, as well as older installations where the regulations were not as strict and not as well enforced.

So you must always assume there might be a cable or pipe where there shouldn't be, and proceed with caution.

 

[wood fitter]

[quote name='ProDave']I'm still waiting for an explanation of the thought process that leads you to think that using a screw too long for the job is correct practice.

Sorry tried to address this but my phone wouldn't post my reply and I didn't want to divert the thread anyway.

Call me tight or lazy but i just use the screws supplied with the hinges. Even if they're 35mm. I'm sure most DIYers would too.

You wouldn't believe the length of screws I sometimes remove when taking doors off.

You ever seen the screws that come with kiddies safety gates there around 50mm, Imagine that through 40mm of door-casing with a wire behind it.

Most DIYers don't have a tradecase of screws.

My use of long screws is not what this thread is about.

I wan't to know if the NIC electrician who rewired and certificated the property is accountable for the wire being in a non-safe zone?

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 23:17 ---------- Previous post was made at 22:08 ----------

Do you guys have to pay to appear on the NICIEC approved contractors list?

I looked for the spark here by postcode, town and name and can't find him.

NICEIC | Householder | Find an Electrician

Even though he advertises here thelocalweb - THE directory of UK business websites

with this statement and links to the NICIEC website;-

"We are members of the National Inspection Council For Electrical Installation and Contracting. We offer a service for all of your electrical needs. Contact us for more details."

 

[Evans Electric]

He should be on the NICEIC published list , if you are really bothered , report him to the NICEIC along with his roll number and watch them swing into action ......not.

Unless he,s not actually a member then they'll go for him big time!!!!

And yes we all pay a lot of money to be registered and monitored by these trade bodies, much like the gas guys who can't leave home without sitting another exam.

 

[batty]

As Dave and The Badger say, you can't assume anything, even if it is rewired and certified. You could assume that the guy who rewired and certified the job knows where the "Safe zones" are , but you'd be wrong in this case. Much like myself rewiring a guest house in Wales , in the middle of a plastered wall in a utility room, about 4ft FFL I drill two holes for a twin moulded box, water gushes from the second hole , much to my suprise!!

A water pipe was installed , flush in wall, running diagonally from the top left corner to the bottom right corner and out to the outside toilet. I had wrongly assumed that the plumbing would follow the same rules and codes of practice as what I'm used to.

In this area a water pipe would never be installed in that way , it would have been surface , probably boxed in .

They don't Deke as i found out recently cutting through an iron gas pipe with my chase cutter. I personally think it should have been chopped out and capped of under the floor but plumbit turned it round in the wall and it was then plastered over so not in a safe zone so to speak.

 

[Sidewinder]

WoodFitter,

I would say that if the property has been rewired and the wiring has been run behind the door frame/architrave, then the installing electrician probably tied his horse up outside when he was doing the job.

So, I would absolve you.

Sorry if I have upset other members, however, in fairness to the chippy, the wiring should NOT be there IMHO so that is it.

I don't think that the issue here is screws, it is more about cutting door jambs to fit flooring, there should not be cables in this vicinity in a newly re-wired property.

One point WF, 7671 is just guidance TBH.

The only "law" you will find are Building Regs, however, a re-wire comes under building regs which refer to 7671 as the "way" to do it so, to comply with "law" it must be done to 7671.

Thing is there are just TOO many guys who tie their horses up outside jobs these days as they know no different!

 

[ProDave]

I've just thought of a few more points.

Even if there are no mains wires behind the architrave, it's still possible you will find things like tv aerial cables, and in particular telephone cables. While these won't go bang if you cut through them, doing so will still stop something working, and somebody will have to come along and repair it.

Also another IMPORTANT point. Any wall area wihin 150mm of a corner is a "safe zone" where cables can be run and be compliant with current wiring regulations.

So in the case of a door opening that is tight into a corner, there may well be cables behind the architrave close to the corner and these will comply with the current wiring regulations.

So as I have said before, exercise extreme caution cutting the bottom off a door architrave while in situ.