Call outs

[Jc1996]

Hi guys as I’ve already probably said I’m not from a domestic back ground but wanted to know how you guys go around certain things. My questions are:

if you was fitting a new board and breaking the current installations tails to install new tails would you then have to correct the current tail (if they was fed through a cavity and not RCD protected is it then your responsibility to correct this and would you also have to test every circuit in the installation as you’ve modified the tails)  

another one I’ve wanted to ask is for all the guys that do call out what do you do if you come to a job that you are asked to sort out say a circuit kept tripping and it was a loose connection etc. say if you’ve sorted that out but the circuit isn’t up to standard say ZS isn’t compliant or bonding conductors aren’t sufficient. What do you guys do fill in a minor works or a danger notice? I’ve always wondered what you guys do as there’s lots of installations that have been ‘working like that for years’ but when it comes down to our responsibility what should we do in these cases? 

 

[binky]

if you put an RCd on the meter tails, then you contravene regs for minimising disruption in the event of a fault. 

Repairing a cct is maintenance work, there is no requirement to bring the cct upto todays regs. If the Zs still fails then I would say it needs further investigation / fault finding. If you find issues such as out of date bonding, then it's upto to you to advise the customer that updating would be a good idea

 

[Andy™]

repairs just do what you need to do, even if that means a circuit still doesnt have RCD protection. youve not made it any worse, just dont leave it more dangerous. if its really bad then you may just have to leave it and advise further work, rewiring etc is required

 

[Jc1996]

Right so me trying to be by the book if we carry out maintenance work ie breakdowns we need to make sure our work is no worse than it was before. How do we stand on a legal side should we always make sure we advise what problems are wrong with the circuit I’m thinking stuff like fixing a lighting circuit no cpc and not class 2 fittings if we fix this then where do we stand is it okay to just advise it not right? And should be sorted. As long as it’s not imidiatly dangerous is it okay to just advise and what documentation covers us? Ahah I’m a little bit obsessed with doing things to the book and covering my arse. Thanks guys 

 

[binky]

the book, is a bit rubbish when it comes to old systems. We can't force people to change things when repairing a cct. Whatever was installed 30/40 years ago, was probably correct at time on installation, and the regs aren't retrospective. Fix the fault and advise customer of any other findings. If you want to cover rear end, issue a minor works with that inforamtion on it. If you find something that is an immediate threat, eg exposed live electrics fix it or walk away if the customer refuses to pay for works. We have no power to switch off even in those circumstances, although I've never known a customer to refuse repairs to anything clearly dangerous.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Right so me trying to be by the book if we carry out maintenance work ie breakdowns we need to make sure our work is no worse than it was before. How do we stand on a legal side should we always make sure we advise what problems are wrong with the circuit I’m thinking stuff like fixing a lighting circuit no cpc and not class 2 fittings if we fix this then where do we stand is it okay to just advise it not right? And should be sorted. As long as it’s not imidiatly dangerous is it okay to just advise and what documentation covers us? Ahah I’m a little bit obsessed with doing things to the book and covering my arse. Thanks guys 

I presume that "by the book" you mean BS7671?   Which is Non-Statutory guidance..

Any person doing electrical work should be competent enough to assess; 

"What the customer has asked them to do"

"The condition of the current installation"

"What current regs recommend and what the regs recommended when the original work was installed"

And do an evaluation if there are any immediate dangers or potential dangers that directly relate to the work you are about to do..

There is no simple black & white checklist with here's what you do in this situation..

You just have to apply your knowledge and expertise to each individual case.

Say your example of a no-CPC light circuit..

If customer asks you to replace a faulty dimmer switch...

(Old CU, no RCD's on any lighting circuits)

If its a classII dimmer, its not your problem if there are other non-classII accessories on the circuit that you have never worked on..

But if you were asked to fit a decorative metal non-classII dimmer then that fitting is your problem,

as there is a potential danger relating directly to work you have done and you either need to sort out a CPC or get a different accessory!

The fact that there is no RCD to protect the cables buried in walls <50mm,

or no RCD for circuits supplying luminaries..

is NOT your problem as you have NOT installed any cables buried in walls or installed any new circuits or extended any circuits supplying luminaires..

All you need to do is ensure your paperwork, invoices, electrical certificates clearly state exactly what work you have done..

so your back is covered from any unrelated future problems..

e.g. a description of work done stating:- 

"Replace ClassII dimmer switch in downstairs front room, circuit#4 no CPC, customer advised, warning label fitted at CU as per ESC best practice guide 1"   

is IMHO better than,  "Fix fault on lighting circuit"

At the end of the day you have to apply some common sense. If you don't do the work someone else probably will..

and it may be a DIY metal decorative dimmer fitted..

BUT you can only do the work you are going to be paid to do,

and you cant make a customer pay for stuff just because you would like it done.

Have you seen the various best practice guides?  

the one on swapping CU's covers some of the points you mention..  

https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/media/2146/bpg1.pdf

Others are free download PDFs as well..

https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/professional-resources/best-practice-guides/

Guinness

 

[Jc1996]

I presume that "by the book" you mean BS7671?   Which is Non-Statutory guidance..

Any person doing electrical work should be competent enough to assess; 

"What the customer has asked them to do"

"The condition of the current installation"

"What current regs recommend and what the regs recommended when the original work was installed"

And do an evaluation if there are any immediate dangers or potential dangers that directly relate to the work you are about to do..

There is no simple black & white checklist with here's what you do in this situation..

You just have to apply your knowledge and expertise to each individual case.

Say your example of a no-CPC light circuit..

If customer asks you to replace a faulty dimmer switch...

(Old CU, no RCD's on any lighting circuits)

If its a classII dimmer, its not your problem if there are other non-classII accessories on the circuit that you have never worked on..

But if you were asked to fit a decorative metal non-classII dimmer then that fitting is your problem,

as there is a potential danger relating directly to work you have done and you either need to sort out a CPC or get a different accessory!

The fact that there is no RCD to protect the cables buried in walls <50mm,

or no RCD for circuits supplying luminaries..

is NOT your problem as you have NOT installed any cables buried in walls or installed any new circuits or extended any circuits supplying luminaires..

All you need to do is ensure your paperwork, invoices, electrical certificates clearly state exactly what work you have done..

so your back is covered from any unrelated future problems..

e.g. a description of work done stating:- 

"Replace ClassII dimmer switch in downstairs front room, circuit#4 no CPC, customer advised, warning label fitted at CU as per ESC best practice guide 1"   

is IMHO better than,  "Fix fault on lighting circuit"

At the end of the day you have to apply some common sense. If you don't do the work someone else probably will..

and it may be a DIY metal decorative dimmer fitted..

BUT you can only do the work you are going to be paid to do,

and you cant make a customer pay for stuff just because you would like it done.

Have you seen the various best practice guides?  

the one on swapping CU's covers some of the points you mention..  

https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/media/2146/bpg1.pdf

Others are free download PDFs as well..

https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/professional-resources/best-practice-guides/

Guinness

But if you was to install a new socket outlet would you then have to sort out the issue of unprotected meter tails and RCD protection? 

 

[Sharpend]

If you install a new socket then you will need to provide it with RCD protection as per 18th Edition. 

 

[Jc1996]

But if I was replacing a faulty socket and had no rcd protection (zs was a bit high) would that be an issue and how are we covered? 

 

[binky]

you replace the broken socket, simples, as that is a real danger. 

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

But if you was to install a new socket outlet would you then have to sort out the issue of unprotected meter tails and RCD protection? 

If any aspect of the incoming supply is not adequate for the proposed alteration, (temporary or permanent), then you will have to consider have you complied with 132.16..

If all aspects of the incoming supply complied with the regulations that were applicable when they were installed, then I doubt there is any immediate danger to any users of that installation?

If the incoming supply is clearly an immediate danger, and has never complied with anything then I doubt I would be starting any alteration or remedial work of any type! 

If I have never worked on any aspect of the incoming supply then I have no responsibility for it, providing that....

(a) any work I have done is compliant with current regs.

(b) the condition of the current supply is NOT immediately dangerous.. e.g. No earth.. Polarity reversed..  exposed live parts etc..

If supply tails are buried in a wall..

without physically dismantling that wall how do you know they have no mechanical protection and/or are less than 50mm deep??

:C

Guinness     

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

But if I was replacing a faulty socket and had no rcd protection (zs was a bit high) would that be an issue and how are we covered? 

If RCD protection was not required when the socket was fitted and you have only replaced a faulty socket front.. (like for like replacement).. 

then the questions you need to ask yourself are...  

(1) What NEW wiring have you installed that was NOT there before you arrived ?

(2) What NEW socket have you installed that was NOT there before you arrived ?

So have you done any ADDITIONS or ALTERATIONS to the installation that was NOT there before your work was complete?

Zs high???

Realistically on the average domestic installation it is quite difficult to exceed the max permissible Zs values..

BUT...

If I did encounter this I would probably whizz around all sockets on the circuit to assess all the Zs values for all sockets on the circuit..

Action taken would then depend upon what results I found?

Guinness  

 

[Doc Hudson]

Thankyou @Jc1996for raising these questions. I suspect they are common problems that many less experienced, or new to the trade, can often struggle with. And are very understandable concerns, when we all know that we are working with an invisible product that can kill people very quickly. I am enjoying this thread as it highlights the fact that electrical work is not about join these coloured wire onto these terminals to make something work. When it is really about will any additions or alterations I have done fail safe and not endanger any persons, and can I justify my actions with respect to BS7671.

Doc H

 

[binky]

But if you was to install a new socket outlet would you then have to sort out the issue of unprotected meter tails and RCD protection? 

If you mean you are making an alteration to a circuit, ie adding a completely new socket point to an existing cct, then your work, being new, needs to be compliant with todays regs, and that includes main bonding. 

Meter tails are a submain - RCD protection requirements are different for submains. Proving how tails have been installed is nigh on impossible without major surgery to walls. Generally they pop in through a wall from a meter cabinet. and to the consumr unit via the shortest route, often using the wall cavity. It is very rare to find tails plastered into a wall where RCD protection may be considered necessary. On old victorian housing which is what I spend most of my time working in, the meter and consumer units tend to be in understairs cupboards or on a wall by the front door where tails are highly visible, or have been boxed in to improve the decor. Part of the horrible mess I was testing yesterday is shown inthe photo below - no need for RCDs on any of these tails.

 

[Jc1996]

Thanks guys. So the main thing is any alteration to an existing circuit must be up to the current regs. But maintenance such as fixing a faulty socket and changing like for like is different and this is when if we find any further problems ie bad earths low IR what is the best way of reporting this as obviously wouldn’t be good to leave them without power? Fix the problem and notify them of further issues? 

 

[Sharpend]

I think you are over thinking here, as a qualified electrician you should use your knowledge and common sense. If you change a faulty socket, carry out some basic tests before you reinstate circuit or before you change it if you’re unsure. 
based on your results you determine whether it’s a five minute fix or something more serious, either way communicate with your client throughout this way they won’t feel that you are trying to scam them. 

If you deem it to have a serious issue then STOP and discuss with client. If it’s a five minute fix then carry on and complete. 
Always follow up your visit with an advisory letter, if you found a serious issue, outlining what you have discussed/proposed with client. 

 

[Jc1996]

thanks sharpened yes I’m definitely an over-thinker but yeah so as long as you’ve notified them of the issues and advice of more work being carried out I.e upgrading earthing or adding an rcd ect you are covered as only maintenance has been carried out. No additional or alterations?

 

[binky]

Maintenance can be done by anyone, even plumbers, you have no legal worries for simple replacement of broken items