caught my eye?

[Sharpend]

so just reading the news on msn and came across this.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/Nine-year sentence for landlord of ‘timebomb’ Essex pub where seven-year-old boy was fatally electrocuted | Evening Standard 

Essex pub owner jailed for nine years over fatal electrocution of seven-year-old boy | UK News | Sky News

(don't know if the links will work?)

So is this a case for bringing in a licence system for electricians? would a licence stop this sort of electrician? would a licence system have produced a greater sentence for both? Are the industry leaders failing in policing the electrical trade, how could they have stopped this from happening? 

Will this case bring about another change in the industry?

 

[Murdoch]

TBH I think the time for any form of licencing system has past by
 

If you look at the standard of work done, often by time served sparks, then how can any scheme work
 

You only have to look at the total farce of the EICRs to know that unless everything is prescribed in great detail AND policed nothing will change.
 

And then there are the posts on here by unskilled people too and YouTube .....
 

Retirement can't cone to soon

 

[boltonsparky]

I've just made a thread with a link to this having not seen this one.

The meter was bypassed, from what I've read the main earthing was disconnected. This was a deliberate intention to cut corners and steal electricity. No license/policing would have changed what they did as they clearly had a disregard for safety and what was right and wrong.

What baffles me was how long he was there for doing work and how dangerous the installation still was.

Part of the problem would be solved by refusing the sale of electrical kit to joe public (not in the above case) but that's only half the problem. We already have a half C***** kind of licensing system with the scams but when you allow money making businesses to control things it's only going to go one way, proven by the number of cases of shoddy work by approved members. 

Personally I would like to see a type of licence, from one governing body, that stated on it the works you were permitted to carry out, that was properly policed and that appropriately scrutinised licensees. How that would be implemented cost effectively I'm not sure. 

Compare it to driving, everyone driving (mostly) has a licence, are they all safe, far from it.  

 

[Sharpend]

So if a licensing scheme wouldn’t work and the likely hood of sale of electrical kit being only to qualified tradespersons being nil then where do we go? 
 

 

[Murdoch]

So if a licensing scheme wouldn’t work and the likely hood of sale of electrical kit being only to qualified tradespersons being nil then where do we go? 
 

I will continue striving for excellence and avoid picky cheap customers.

The CPS ' s won't do anything, the big sheds will sell to make money, the OEM's will continue to influence the regs with unnecessary changes.

 

[binky]

Personally I would like to see a type of licence, from one governing body, that stated on it the works you were permitted to carry out, that was properly policed and that appropriately scrutinised licensees. How that would be implemented cost effectively I'm not sure. 

I agree, the issue isn't the current registeration bodies, it's the fact that they are weak and allow half trained people to be registered and trade. IMHO we need to be more like the French, ie you can't trade unless registered, and you have to be properly qualified to achieve that. On top of that we need a single registration body that is a charity not a money making quango, with less influence by OEMs and greater scrutiny of work done. The later part is the hardest to achieve, should that be multiple inspections per year/ random turn up to see what you are doing that day/ direct contact with a customer to ask if they can see what you have done? 

We wil never completely get rid of cowboys, but we can certainly make it much harder for them to trade. I also feel that making entry to the trade and greater scrutiny will raise the stauts of electricians and hopefully achieve higher earnings. 

 

[boltonsparky]

I agree, the issue isn't the current registeration bodies, it's the fact that they are weak and allow half trained people to be registered and trade. IMHO we need to be more like the French, ie you can't trade unless registered, and you have to be properly qualified to achieve that. On top of that we need a single registration body that is a charity not a money making quango, with less influence by OEMs and greater scrutiny of work done. The later part is the hardest to achieve, should that be multiple inspections per year/ random turn up to see what you are doing that day/ direct contact with a customer to ask if they can see what you have done? 

We wil never completely get rid of cowboys, but we can certainly make it much harder for them to trade. I also feel that making entry to the trade and greater scrutiny will raise the stauts of electricians and hopefully achieve higher earnings. 

Further to that there is the confusion over what a proper qualified electrician is. Some are adamant the only way is via the time served route, others say courses are fine, I think the only general agreement is that the short courses aren't ok.

I've seen bad work done by older time served and bad work by the course qualified. The scrutiny of the actual work done is the critical part I think. Random spot checks are the only way, but think how many trading electricians there are and how many inspectors we'd need to be doing multiple random checks a year. Unfortunately as with everything in this country I'm convinced if it was implemented it would be a poorly executed  show.

I do like your idea though. 

 

[Geoff1946]

Cowboys aside, you will always get variable quality work from any workforce. That's life. Some workers are conscientious, others will do the minimum as long as the pay cheque comes.

Interesting the way the discussion comparing us with France has gone. My son served a multi trade/electrical apprenticeship with a large engineering company here.

He went on to earn an electrical engineering degree.

Dissatisfied with the UK lifestyle he emigrated to France, not really sure what he was going to do next.

He found that his UK qualifications allowed him to work as an electrician, and in due course set up his own company. It's operated now for a number of years with ample domestic and commercial work, and their work is regularly inspected. (I don't know who controls the inspection regime. It may be the local power company)

 

[binky]

Cowboys aside, you will always get variable quality work from any workforce. That's life. Some workers are conscientious, others will do the minimum as long as the pay cheque comes.

Interesting the way the discussion comparing us with France has gone.

 In France you can't advertise a service you are not trained/ quakified to do. Now that does smack of 'closed shop' but I just think the UK is rediculous, I could decide to be a barber tomorrow, (Dewhurts would be an apporpiate name) and a barber could decide to be an electrican, paint a logo on a van and go trade. You're dead right about standards, they will always vary by person, and sometimes people are just having a bad day/ havn't got the right gear / the customer is a tight fisted arse! But if you can at least control entry to the trade, it should wipe some of this out. 

 

[Sharpend]

I do often wonder why we as a country seem to be so soft on all the wrong things? Surely it would be in our interest as a Nation to have stricter entry levels to most professions, surely that sort of discipline would create a stronger economy? It might even encourage the youth and less interested of society to raise their game? It seems to work in the Asian side of the world, have you noticed that if you google technical stuff then many of the specialists/knowledgeable contributors are Indian/Asian origin? 

I do question where this country is heading with its half baked liberalism attitude, we are so middle of the road on our approach to everything that we don't even realise that there is any other way? 

 

[Murdoch]

I do often wonder why we as a country seem to be so soft on all the wrong things? Surely it would be in our interest as a Nation to have stricter entry levels to most professions, surely that sort of discipline would create a stronger economy?

Its like the line in the Part P regs "may be prosecuted" - which is code for "break the law it doesn't matter you won't get touched"

There needs to be a tougher line on lots of things TBH, and I suspect most voters would approve

 

[binky]

I do question where this country is heading with its half baked liberalism attitude, we are so middle of the road on our approach to everything that we don't even realise that there is any other way? 

Can't blame liberalism for this. If you want a label I would say 'free market capitalism / light touch regulation' is the root cause of the problem. Very much a right wing philosophy where we couldn't possible have standards and regulation interrupting the profit motive. 

 

[Sharpend]

Its like the line in the Part P regs "may be prosecuted" - which is code for "break the law it doesn't matter you won't get touched"

There needs to be a tougher line on lots of things TBH, and I suspect most voters would approve

I agree, but sad to say we have become a Nation that is governed by a minority for the minority, we the rest of us are too complacent, we just have a moan then move on, we don't take any collective action, I mean who decided that the electrical industry needs the interference of so many unnecessary parties? Why are Manufacturers involved?? its their job to produce to products that are compliant with Regs etc not to be involved ion developing the regs? surely that is grounds for conflict of interest case? 

Can't blame liberalism for this. If you want a label I would say 'free market capitalism / light touch regulation' is the root cause of the problem. Very much a right wing philosophy where we couldn't possible have standards and regulation interrupting the profit motive. 

Yes Capitalism is the most overrated smoke screen that has existed.

 

[Murdoch]

IMHO ID cards are well overdue.

They should be rolled out initially for people who sign on and / or come to work in this country and then for all people progressively AND they should be used when accessing healthcare on the NHS

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

The basic problem is there are not enough deaths to warrant changing any rules or regulations...

Although we all see bucket loads of rubbish work during our regular daily work schedule...

IF no-one has actually died..

then no-one gives a flying fig..

AND..  there is no incentive to amend/change any legislation as it all costs money...

Making DIY electrical work illegal...

combined with a high profile advertising campaign over a 12month+ period to illustrate the dangers of electricity...

would go some way to educating joe-public to only use competent tradespersons!

Guinness