Changing meter tails..

[apprentice87]

Hi all..

Doing a little favour for the people next door. They want a 32a supply to their shed and hot tub. I am busy splitting the tails with a henley block and have installed a separate CU to feed the shed.

Now, the existing tails exit the bottom of the meter, turn sharp right [installer obviously never cared about bend radius] and set off to the original CU. They have also covered the one tail with insulating tape [for reasons unknown] and each tape enters the metal cu through a separate hole, so clearly not the brightest..

Anyway, there is NO WAY that i am going to re-route these tails, [they need to go left instead of right] as pulling them round 180 degrees is likely to affect the security of the termination in the meter terminals..

I have pulled loads of fuses [after a visit from the seal fairy] but never meter seals.. Now i know you are all going to say i have to contact the supplier, BUT, these tails belong to the customer, so to my mind he/me/we can do what we like.

Here is one documents from ukpn that show that he/we/ own the tails and state that "electricians" can replace them..??

See item "8" on their picture.. Sorry the picture is so bad but for the tails from the meter to the CU it reads "Consumer unit tails; These cables connect your consumer unit to the meter. They can be connected and maintained by your electrician because they're part of the internal wiring"

What you all think??

Secondly, what you all use to seal the things back up again??

john..

 

[ProDave]

I would pull the fuse (cough) cut the existing tails so they go straight down from the meter to the henley blocks then new tails from there to existing CU and new CU.  If you keep the tails entering via separate holes on the existing CU, put a hacksaw cut between the holes.

If there is room you could put a DP isolator before the henley blocks.

Meter connections are old school terminals with two big screws.  Very little chance of loosening a connection by bending the exiting tail, unlike the silly little cage clamp terminals used on most main switches inside CU's. so no need to open up the meter seals.

 

[Andy™]

you could cut the tails and install a REC2 close to the meter. the problem is isolating them unless you want to do it live (which isnt recommended) as youll need to remove DNO's fuse or suppliers meter seal

you may be lucky and have one of the rarely found meters with 2 covers on the bottom of the meter and a built in isolator behind it

 

[Evans Electric]

This problem pishes me off , its gone on since  the begining of electric installations  and the area  Electricity Board   grew up thinking they were the Electric Police .  

 The whole point is there is  no downstream isolation avaiable to allow you to kill the supply in a domestic board  without breaking rules .      Perhaps we should report every instance to H&S   .  

I tried twice in the last 50 odd years to do this properly  .ie  :     1st  time  ,phone the old MEB   request the fuse is pulled for us to change the board .   Bloke turned up about 11am  pulled fuse , re-sealed carrier  , left with fuse  saying he may not get back that day .    Another guy came  about 6pm  on the night  as an "Emergency call"  to put a fuse in . 

  Never tried that method again  TBH

We once tried phoning the  company that supplied power to the house ,which I think is the  recommended way   ,  another waste of time  as they need to contact a metering company who then tell you when they will come  so you have adjust your life to fit in .  

So one does what has to be done to work in a safe manner .      Probably the best way  to tackle it is to fit a 100A  main switch  which can often be done without bothering anyone . 

 

[Murdoch]

  Never tried that method again  TBH

Me neither.

My patch is half SSE and half EDF - SSE allow me to cut the DNO fuse seals, and EDF don't - I simply don't have time to waste on organising engineers to come out in 3 hour windows ...............

If its the meter side that need changing, I add a henley block

 

[OnOff]

Some people...cut the seals and pull the fuse WITH ALL LOADS DISCONNECTED.

Fit an REC2 as aforementioned.

Some of these from eBay to complete the job:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6mm-AL-CU-METER-SECURITY-SEAL-SEALS-WIRES-FERRULES-IDEAL-FOR-ELECTRIC-TAXI/352649988637?

I've had an emergency DNO bod turn up and repair a cracked Bakelite head with "really special" insulating tape (his words ) as a temporary fix. Then fit plain, un numbered seals like the ones above. Subsequent DNO subbies have left site without fitting ANY seals to the head whatsoever - too busy talking football/what they're going to do to their birds at the weekend. When you can do a better job and take more pride than the people who should be ticking all the boxes it's no wonder people do. You try the correct, legit route and when left incredulous at how it works in reality...

Gone are the days of the closely guarded numbered seal kits imo. When my mate's Dad died all the LEB wanted back was his seal kit. Left all his other tools and my mate had them. Was 20 years back mind.

 

[Evans Electric]

We did a 90%  rewire in a cul-de sac  of  1970s builds  I'd guess , this was about 2010 .      Empty house , retiring couple had bought it  ,  we'd been there an hour , disconnected everything  from the board  , fitted a twin socket for   use  by us & heating guy.     Quick try with the loop tester showed  "Do Not Test "     No earth ...traced it to the PME cut-out ,the link missing between the Neutral  & Earth terminal .  

So we phoned it in , omitting  to say house was  unoccupied at that time .       DNO turned up to replace the head ,    I suggested to the guy , if this cut-out had the link missing could it be that all the others were the same  ...at the time of the original build .    

Not interested .    

 

[UNG]

Had a few rewire jobs over the last couple of years where I had to get the DNO involved because of earthing or in one case a service head making a crackling noise in most cases the service head was replaced and the DNO guy's comment was I won't seal it because you will need to pull the fuse to swap the tails over to the new board I even had one guy leave me a couple of seals to re seal the the meter and service head one I'd fitted new tails. The engineers of two DNO's in the area I work seem to be more relaxed on the rules if they feel you know what you are doing having said that myself and a mate of mine have reported faults to them over the last few years that have resulted in digs to repair local network faults, on one occasion we found an earth fault on one property that the DNO investigated and subsequently found that the earthing on a large part of the street was faulty due to a failed joint under the pavement

 

[misssweden]

View attachment 10703

”Only your electricity supplier can remove this fuse because only they have the equipment to remove it safely.” 
 

What - hands?!  Bloody sparkies keep trying to pull fuses with their teeth...

 

[misssweden]

We did a 90%  rewire in a cul-de sac  of  1970s builds  I'd guess , this was about 2010 .      Empty house , retiring couple had bought it  ,  we'd been there an hour , disconnected everything  from the board  , fitted a twin socket for   use  by us & heating guy.     Quick try with the loop tester showed  "Do Not Test "     No earth ...traced it to the PME cut-out ,the link missing between the Neutral  & Earth terminal .  

So we phoned it in , omitting  to say house was  unoccupied at that time .       DNO turned up to replace the head ,    I suggested to the guy , if this cut-out had the link missing could it be that all the others were the same  ...at the time of the original build .    

Not interested .    

Probably more knowing that there is nothing he could do about it. For a start that information needs to be fed upwards in the manager chain. Then for someone to go and test the earth loop in every house in a street they would all need to be notified in writing, appointments arranged unless the supply is in an outside box, and so on and so forth. It’s a lot of planning and time that goes into that, especially if no other customers had reported a problem. 

 

[Evans Electric]

I take your point there Sweedy  .    But there are similar  situations elsewhere  in the city   .  There appears to be a major problem with earthing in the area .   Having applied for an earth for a long standing customer we were informed none was available  from the network .    It was left to us to sort , which ended up being  six rods to achieve something decent . 

The point is though , its a long road and no one will know theres an earthing problem until they employ a sparky  ( And possibly not even after that !!!)  

 

[UNG]

I take your point there Sweedy  .    But there are similar  situations elsewhere  in the city   .  There appears to be a major problem with earthing in the area .   Having applied for an earth for a long standing customer we were informed none was available  from the network .    It was left to us to sort , which ended up being  six rods to achieve something decent . 

The point is though , its a long road and no one will know theres an earthing problem until they employ a sparky  ( And possibly not even after that !!!)  

The trouble is there is no consistency when it comes to the DNO guys on the ground and those in the office. Had one a few years ago where a property my brother had bought had clearly not had any earth since the old metal service head was replaced put a call into the DNO and one of their emergency guys turned up a few hours later and declared that the supply was TT, pointed out to him that the property was fed by a PILC but he wasn't having any of it even when he was told the lead sheath gave a loop resistance of 0.3Ω, after he left got back onto the DNO and asked them to verify that the metal sheath would not cause any safety issues to the consumer and their extraneous metalwork entering the property was earthed or suitably insulated we then had a conversation regarding the recent visit from one of their guys and despite the PILC sheath being very clearly earthed that the supply was a TT it was then arranged that another crew would be sent out to resolve the issue

It seems to be quite in common recent years that the DNO would prefer not to supply an earth or certainly not repair a failed earth connection if they can get away with it although that seems to be at the discretion of the guy attending site although most will once you put them on the spot

 

[Andy™]

We did a 90%  rewire in a cul-de sac  of  1970s builds  I'd guess , this was about 2010 .      Empty house , retiring couple had bought it  ,  we'd been there an hour , disconnected everything  from the board  , fitted a twin socket for   use  by us & heating guy.     Quick try with the loop tester showed  "Do Not Test "     No earth ...traced it to the PME cut-out ,the link missing between the Neutral  & Earth terminal .  

So we phoned it in , omitting  to say house was  unoccupied at that time .       DNO turned up to replace the head ,    I suggested to the guy , if this cut-out had the link missing could it be that all the others were the same  ...at the time of the original build .    

Not interested .    

there is an estate in gateshead (think its been knocked down now) where its all overhead and TT, but many of the cutouts have the earth terminal on the side but nothing connected

 

[ProDave]

Here is an idea.  When the meter reader comes every 2 years as he is supposed to do by law, give him a loop tester and a bit of training and he can check the state of the supply and earthing.

 

[misssweden]

Here is an idea.  When the meter reader comes every 2 years as he is supposed to do by law, give him a loop tester and a bit of training and he can check the state of the supply and earthing.

Now you’re just being far too logical and sensible Dave.

 

[misssweden]

The trouble is there is no consistency when it comes to the DNO guys on the ground and those in the office. Had one a few years ago where a property my brother had bought had clearly not had any earth since the old metal service head was replaced put a call into the DNO and one of their emergency guys turned up a few hours later and declared that the supply was TT, pointed out to him that the property was fed by a PILC but he wasn't having any of it even when he was told the lead sheath gave a loop resistance of 0.3Ω, after he left got back onto the DNO and asked them to verify that the metal sheath would not cause any safety issues to the consumer and their extraneous metalwork entering the property was earthed or suitably insulated we then had a conversation regarding the recent visit from one of their guys and despite the PILC sheath being very clearly earthed that the supply was a TT it was then arranged that another crew would be sent out to resolve the issue

It seems to be quite in common recent years that the DNO would prefer not to supply an earth or certainly not repair a failed earth connection if they can get away with it although that seems to be at the discretion of the guy attending site although most will once you put them on the spot

I’m not quite sure I’m reading this right but you can get properties with TT earthing despite a PILC incomer. An area in my old patch had it, but it was really old original installations from just after the dinosaurs died out. The electricity board back in the day just provided a live and neutral and never stripped the armour back to expose the lead for an earth connection. 

 

[Murdoch]

Here is an idea.  When the meter reader comes every 2 years as he is supposed to do by law, give him a loop tester and a bit of training and he can check the state of the supply and earthing.

Really?

We've been in this house for over 6 years now and apart from changing the dumb meter, for another dumb meter about 5 years ago, we've not had a visit - that said I give them a "customer" reading online on the last day of every month

 

[UNG]

there is an estate in gateshead (think its been knocked down now) where its all overhead and TT, but many of the cutouts have the earth terminal on the side but nothing connected

There was a few places local to me that had the mural mains wiring but I'm sure a good while ago the DNO said they were going to replace it with UG wiring

I’m not quite sure I’m reading this right but you can get properties with TT earthing despite a PILC incomer. An area in my old patch had it, but it was really old original installations from just after the dinosaurs died out. The electricity board back in the day just provided a live and neutral and never stripped the armour back to expose the lead for an earth connection. 

If the lead isn't exposed then yes I would agree it is possible to have a TT supply but when the lead is clearly exposed due to the old metal service head being replaced with a plastic one and the lead clearly tests as a viable TNS supply then IMO it has never been a TT supply and when challenging the DNO engineers observations with the DNO's office they agreed with me and reinstated the earth

 

[Andy™]

but when the lead is clearly exposed due to the old metal service head being replaced with a plastic one

and if the lead is exposed, then its extraneous and would need bonding

 

[Evans Electric]

and if the lead is exposed, then its extraneous and would need bonding

OOooo  !  The words  cans  & worms spring to mind. 

Some folk have been known  to clean up the lead themselves  , fit a copper  braid earth strap to an earth block , held in place with a suitable P61 Constant Force spring  14mm  ---22mmm  dia.  so I'm told .