Condition report for workplace

[Mell]

Hello everyone,

As in my previous thread I have passed my testing and inspection exams a couple of months ago and so still green at this sorry but I have a question, my bosses have asked if I would do a condition report for the insurance on our warehouse and offices the building is decades old and any diagrams charts or previous reports are missing as my bosses only bought the building a few years ago I told them they should of had a report done then but they didn't realise and the last owner told them the last report was still in date but the copy they got is faded and of no use to me. First of all anyone got any tips on doing this cause I reckon I'm going to have to do a 100% check on everything and my other question is the lighting system is made up of flat led tile lights and old fluorescent lights how do I do an insulation resistance test without disconnecting every light.

Sorry to be long winded and appreciate any help thanks.

 

[Sharpend]

I would explain to bosses that now would be an ideal time to do the 100% test then the following years you can do a percentage given then that you will know the history of the installation and any subsequent alterations. 
As for the IR test you can start with a global test of circuit (Connect LN together and earth on other test lead, ) I would start with a 250v test, this will give you an idea of the state of wiring. Up it to 500v based on test 250v result. Poor results would require breaking down circuit. 

 

[Mell]

Hi sharpend,

Thanks for your response I'm a little confused sorry are you saying disconnect the live, neutral and earth from db put my test leads on as you said and send a test voltage down the circuits, 250v, while all the lights are still connected, is that what you are saying to try? 

Thanks 

 

[binky]

Hi sharpend,

Thanks for your response I'm a little confused sorry are you saying disconnect the live, neutral and earth from db put my test leads on as you said and send a test voltage down the circuits, 250v, while all the lights are still connected, is that what you are saying to try? 

Thanks 

That's it, unless you diconnect every light you will get false results from ballasts and the LED drivers. Testing LN-E helps reduces the errors these bits of kit will show, and at 250V you won't risk damaging any of these bits of kit that 500V might do. 

In these circumstances I would be looking at testing all the circuits, sample inspection of the accessories. Lighting maybe limited to continuity / Zs at an accessible light switch where accessing end of line at a light 20m above the ground above a storage rack is just not feasible without scaffolding or the like (note this on your cert) . No ne expects and inspector to risk life and limb to access and of line on high level lighting.

 

[Mell]

Thanks binky.

 

[Sidewinder]

Do not disconnect the circuit cpc from the earth bar.  To do so is incorrect.

 

[Sharpend]

Do not disconnect the circuit cpc from the earth bar.  To do so is incorrect.

correct I should have made that clear in my post.

 

[Mell]

Just another quick question the warehouse and office have a lot of lights when it comes to the continuity test at the start is there an easier way of testing because I am not sure which light is last in the circuit so I assume I am going to have to measure at each light and take the highest reading or can I assume the furthest light from the circuit is the last one.

Thanks 

 

[phil d]

Lights are generally wired on a radial, so you will have to go to each fitting until you find the last one unfortunately, it may be a pain, but at least you know where it is for next time.

 

[Mell]

Thanks Phil I thought it would be the case 

 

[Phoenix]

A couple of guesses in most places finds the end of line of a circuit, of course, you don't sometimes know immediatly that you have the highest reading even if you only have one cable, multiple branches from separatly switched sections etc.

I do note however that you refer to continuity testing rather than loop testing, so assume you are doing an R1R2 on these lighting circuits?

Generally speaking, generally R1R2 is not done on a commericial/industrial EICR, its not practicable a lot of the time, and it doesn't 'add much' over what just taking a Zs would, some people like to back calculate R1R2 but this is somewhat pointless and is just filling a box on the form for the sake of it. R2 is a usful test to check earthing of exposed metal parts, but you dont always get a value that you can record, often its not practiable to run the wander lead back to the DB, so test against a known good earth, i.e. that from a socket outlet that you have proven earth to, as you run around probing all the brass switch plates and flourescent battens, this of course would be meaningless in terms of a specific value for R2, but does prove its within a sensible bound.

 

[Murdoch]

Don’t under estimate how long it may take to identify what each circuit does

 

[Geoff1946]

Just a thought. Is your boss an electrician or engineer, or are you the sole electrical expertise in a non-electrical, business?

If he is electrically knowledgeable then a good approach would be to work out a plan of what you intend, then go and discuss it.

They may be waiting to see if you ask questions or just go blindly off on what you think they may want. 

It also sounds to me the sort of job where an assistant could make for a more efficient operation. Again, if you are new and young they may be waiting to see whether you will ask.

 

[Mell]

Thanks Phoenix for your reply it is the R1R2 that I want to measure but don't want to spend hours popping up ceiling tiles but if its what's need then hey hoe, you say you don't need to test on a commercial/industrial building no one has ever said that to me before I thought you need R1R2 to add to your Ze to get your Zs and compare the result to the wiring regs.

Hi Geoff 1946 I am new but old lol no my bosses have no experience in electrics and reply on me and only me hense why I ask questions on here.

 

[Geoff1946]

Hi Geoff 1946 I am new but old lol no my bosses have no experience in electrics and reply on me and only me hense why I ask questions on here.

Fair enough. It's just that I have a suspicious nature and I know the sort of things we did to trainees and new starters when I was in industry.

 

[Murdoch]

Hi Geoff 1946 I am new but old lol no my bosses have no experience in electrics and reply on me and only me hense why I ask questions on here.

I note you've not commented on my post above

You need to set expectations - how many CU's, how many circuits? any old records? 

Then if now records, I would ask if they want you to label up the outlets as they are identified

You need to avoid them asking you on the 2nd day - "why is this taking so long and when will you be finished"

AND also set their expectation that an inspection may well come out as "unsatisfactory" and remedial work may be required

 

[Phoenix]

 I thought you need R1R2 to add to your Ze to get your Zs and compare the result to the wiring regs.

Measure Zs directly to compare to wiring regs.

I think theres this thing in colleges these days, where they try and teach you that measuring Zs on anything except a socket is dangerous and you should calculate Zs values, I don't hold much with that view, it is not dangerous for an trained electrician to measure zs with the correct test probes, etc and while on a new installation there is not too much of a problem doing it this way, a commericial EICR is another kettle of fish, its not a sensible approach to adopt here

 

[Sharpend]

It does make you wonder why they go to so much trouble to produce a safe tip? 

 

[Mell]

Hi Murdoch sorry I didn't reply to your comment I thought it was a statement you was posting, I have 3 db boards 3 phase and just over 50 circuits in total there is no history at all on the electrics so for my own benefit I'm trying to do a 100% inspection testing all circuits finding sockets etc etc so at least we're have records, luckily cause my boss owns the building I'm doing the testing between paying jobs so he can't be to much in a hurry I've told him this is going to take awhile and I've already found problems that need improvements.

 

[NozSpark]

Measure Zs directly to compare to wiring regs.

I think theres this thing in colleges these days, where they try and teach you that measuring Zs on anything except a socket is dangerous and you should calculate Zs values, I don't hold much with that view, it is not dangerous for an trained electrician to measure zs with the correct test probes, etc and while on a new installation there is not too much of a problem doing it this way, a commericial EICR is another kettle of fish, its not a sensible approach to adopt here

This is down to the EWAR in that you aren't meant to work on live equipment unless its absolutely necessary - as a minimum this will require a documented method statement ....

When testing a socket circuit it's very easy to measure Zs safely, without exposing live parts, however you can't do this on many other circuits.... in these cases a Ze followed by R1+R2 testing is a more than adequate method of determining the Zs of the circuit in question