CU change with no lighting cpc.

[TES]

Hi All,

I have been asked to quote on a job to change a CU. There is no cpc in the lighting circuits and the customer has class I fittings in the kitchen, bathroom and a bedroom plus a metal dimmer sw. Now by following the ESC guidence note on the subject it suggests that providing you install a 30mA RCD to the circuits it is ok to change the board leaving the relevant warning notices and marking on the cert of the situation. My take on it is that, an RCD is additional protection and should not be the sole means of protection which without earthing it would be. He doesn't want to change fitting for plastic and definatley doesn't want to rewire the lighting circuit.

Oh yeah, and the smaller problems are no bonds at all and a n-e IR fault which has to be tackled first.

Any guidence on this would be great,

Cheers,

Steve.

 

[Doc Hudson]

Hi All,I have been asked to quote on a job to change a CU. There is no cpc in the lighting circuits and the customer has class I fittings in the kitchen, bathroom and a bedroom plus a metal dimmer sw. Now by following the ESC guidence note on the subject it suggests that providing you install a 30mA RCD to the circuits it is ok to change the board leaving the relevant warning notices and marking on the cert of the situation. My take on it is that, an RCD is additional protection and should not be the sole means of protection which without earthing it would be. He doesn't want to change fitting for plastic and definatley doesn't want to rewire the lighting circuit.

Oh yeah, and the smaller problems are no bonds at all and a n-e IR fault which has to be tackled first.

Any guidence on this would be great,

Cheers,

Steve.

It is a little more detailed than just installing a 30ma RCD and some stickers, the actions table at the back of the guide details numerous scenarios where the recommendation is to leave the lighting circuit disconnected or not replacing the CU. There are safety issues that could leave risk of serious injury, which in the event of any problems will come back to your name signed on the certificate. I would recommend to quote for a proper safe job, if they don't want it then walk away, unless of course you have a lot of insurance cover?

Doc H.

 

[kme]

Concur with the doc. I personally wouldn`t be happy signing a cert. on a job which is to be left with no cpc to class 1 fittings (especially a switch which is expected to be touched)!

What the customer NEEDS must take precedence over what they do or do not want - you cannot take a car for an MOT, and say "don`t test the brakes - they`re faulty, but I don`t want to get them repaired.

In your position, I would issue a danger notice - a class 1 light switch with no cpc. If you make it official that it is unsafe, the customer has more likelihood of accepting your recommendations.

KME

 

[TES]

Thanks for the replies and advice.

I wouldn't attempt the work without changing the fittings to class II and based on the remedy section it makes out that changing to class II and installing a 30mA RCD would surfice and to only leave the it disconnected if the remedy is declined. In your own opinions would that make you happy to make the changes above and sign it off while leaving the circuits without a cpc?

Maybe on that point i'm being too concerned but i'd rather do that then go in without a care in the world.

Steve.

 

[Doc Hudson]

Thanks for the replies and advice.I wouldn't attempt the work without changing the fittings to class II and based on the remedy section it makes out that changing to class II and installing a 30mA RCD would surfice and to only leave the it disconnected if the remedy is declined. In your own opinions would that make you happy to make the changes above and sign it off while leaving the circuits without a cpc?

Maybe on that point i'm being too concerned but i'd rather do that then go in without a care in the world.

Steve.

Hello Steve, I forgot to say welcome to the forum, I would agree that replacing all Class I accessories with Class II and appropriate notices and RCD protection, would be the minimum that I would want to accept, for me to sign the EIC for a CU replacement, if installing CPC's is not an acceptable option for the customer. But I would also advise the customer to budget for replacing these circuits at their earliest convenience and under no circumstances to install any decorative metal accessories.

Doc H.

 

[TES]

Thanks Doc.

That's my way of thinking and it's one of those things you need to go over 10 times in your head to cover all bases.

Thanks to you both for your replies

Regards,

Steve.

 

[ProDave]

the actions table at the back of the guide details numerous scenarios where the recommendation is to leave the lighting circuit disconnected or not replacing the CU.

That was written by one of todays litigation specialist lawyers.

Otherwise, who else would advise NOT changing a CU for a new one with MCB's and RCD's?

To write a flow chart that concludes "leave it alone" is NOT promoting the safest outcome. How can it be the safest thing to leave an old CU in place?

Rather, (unfortunately) that is written from an @rse covering point of view. Don't do the job unless you are 100% sure it is safe, else you will carry the can.

What a sad state of affairs.

On a related note, is this a possible solution:

Recently I have come across an increasing number of brass switch cover plates, apparently sold in B&Q. They are a thin brass metal cover that screws over a plastic light switch, making it look like a posh brass one.

Is a switch with one of these fitted still classed as insulated?

If so, then perhaps it's okay to fit brass covers over a plastic switch on a lighting circuit with no CPC, thus giving the customer the look he wants, but still with an insulated switch.

If they are not okay to regard as insulated, then how do they comply? as where do you attach the earth lead?

 

[Badger]

That was written by one of todays litigation specialist lawyers.Otherwise, who else would advise NOT changing a CU for a new one with MCB's and RCD's?

To write a flow chart that concludes "leave it alone" is NOT promoting the safest outcome. How can it be the safest thing to leave an old CU in place?

Rather, (unfortunately) that is written from an @rse covering point of view. Don't do the job unless you are 100% sure it is safe, else you will carry the can.

What a sad state of affairs.

On a related note, is this a possible solution:

Recently I have come across an increasing number of brass switch cover plates, apparently sold in B&Q. They are a thin brass metal cover that screws over a plastic light switch, making it look like a posh brass one.

Is a switch with one of these fitted still classed as insulated?

If so, then perhaps it's okay to fit brass covers over a plastic switch on a lighting circuit with no CPC, thus giving the customer the look he wants, but still with an insulated switch.

If they are not okay to regard as insulated, then how do they comply? as where do you attach the earth lead?

on the front :innocent :slap

 

[ProDave]

on the front :innocent :slap

with a nice ring crimp. That will look good.

 

[Robin Spark]

One of my friends who lives in a council house changed his bedroom, kitchen and lounge lights from plastic pendants to class 1 fittings, and also a couple of light switches to chrome. I asked him when he was changing the lights did you check that you got an earth at each point and connected.....he said "no earths" ... i said "You're a fool, you shouldnt be messing etc.."

Last time I went to visit, I said "oh I see you have taken your metal fittings down." (thinking he had taken notice of what I had said before)

He said "Nope, council sparkies came and changed consumer unit and took them down, they wouldnt let me keep them up!"

Thank God, is what i was thinking

 

[NozSpark]

I'd say that an un earthed galv box with metal screws holding a decorative metal cover over a plastic switch is almost exactly the same as fiting a metal switch:O

 

[batty]

One of my friends who lives in a council house changed his bedroom, kitchen and lounge lights from plastic pendants to class 1 fittings, and also a couple of light switches to chrome. I asked him when he was changing the lights did you check that you got an earth at each point and connected.....he said "no earths" ... i said "You're a fool, you shouldnt be messing etc.."Last time I went to visit, I said "oh I see you have taken your metal fittings down." (thinking he had taken notice of what I had said before)

He said "Nope, council sparkies came and changed consumer unit and took them down, they wouldnt let me keep them up!"

Thank God, is what i was thinking

Suprised council have not rewired it most councils keep there properties safe after all they would not want to kill a tenant.

 

[Doc Hudson]

Last time I went to visit, I said "oh I see you have taken your metal fittings down." (thinking he had taken notice of what I had said before)He said "Nope, council sparkies came and changed consumer unit and took them down, they wouldnt let me keep them up!"

Thank God, is what i was thinking

Wow, a council actually applying some good practice. Which council is that Robin?

Doc H.

 

[ProDave]

why would you use metal screws on a lighting circuit w/o cpc's?all plaggy + suiatable label on CU

So would metal front cover plates over the top of plastic switches, fixed in place with plastic screws still be classed as insulated and offer a solution for someone wanting decorative switches but not wanting the expense of a rewire?

 

[kme]

I suppose so......the decorative cover may be extraneous (in fact, taken literally, it is exposed, and it is conductive....). But that then raises the question "would you be happy to do it, and it is a "proper job"?

opcorn

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

As mentioned on numerous threads similar to this, it was common practice from the early 60's to early 70's to have metal back box's with either waxed cardboard or plastic lugs when no cpc was wired to alleviate the problem of the screw becoming live in the event of a fault. These boxes were only availible 16mm deep. I dont know if that was a reg or just good practice.

We have the same senario of class 1 fittings & switches with no Cpc on a jobs many times. We fit a new consumer unit fitted with Rcbo's. The old C/u is left in situ with only the problem lighting circuits in, this is fed from the new C/u via a 16A Rcbo.

 

[ProDave]

We fit a new consumer unit fitted with Rcbo's. The old C/u is left in situ with only the problem lighting circuits in, this is fed from the new C/u via a 16A Rcbo.

You see to me, you have paid lip service to the guidance doing that.

The check sheet says don't change the CU.

I would argue that by keeping the old CU but feeding it now from the new one, you have in reality rewired that circuit.

So if someone now kills themselves due to a faulty light or switch, you are in the dock because you disconnected the feed to the old CU, and re connected the feed to the old CU (now from the new one)

You either leave it alone, or do the whole job surely?

I'm not having a go at what you have done, because I agree you have left it a lot safer. I'm having a go at the litigation culture that now says if you can't make it 100% correct, don't do anything, and I would argue you have neither left it alone, nor made it 100% safe so could be in trouble.

I would love to see some official guidance of a case like this one.

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

You see to me, you have paid lip service to the guidance doing that.The check sheet says don't change the CU.

I would argue that by keeping the old CU but feeding it now from the new one, you have in reality rewired that circuit.

So if someone now kills themselves due to a faulty light or switch, you are in the dock because you disconnected the feed to the old CU, and re connected the feed to the old CU (now from the new one)

You either leave it alone, or do the whole job surely?

I'm not having a go at what you have done, because I agree you have left it a lot safer. I'm having a go at the litigation culture that now says if you can't make it 100% correct, don't do anything, and I would argue you have neither left it alone, nor made it 100% safe so could be in trouble.

I would love to see some official guidance of a case like this one.

Not at all. The circuit worked on was a sub mainfrom the new C/U to the old one and all our work meets the regs. Any final circuit leaving the original board is not our responsibility ( for the sake of this discussion). I checked this with the NICEIC tech & we also have showed this set up twice now on annual inspections and both inspectors said its fine.

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Also i forgot to mention i have seen similar jobs recently carried out by a NAPIT registered spark where he left an old board in the basement feeding some dodgy wiring which he fed from his newly installed upstairs C/U via an RCBO. The work he installed was fine & meets the regs

 

[ProDave]

Not at all. The circuit worked on was a sub mainfrom the new C/U to the old one and all our work meets the regs. Any final circuit leaving the original board is not our responsibility ( for the sake of this discussion). I checked this with the NICEIC tech & we also have showed this set up twice now on annual inspections and both inspectors said its fine.

Thanks. the fact your NICIEC inspector said it's fine is the sort of "official guidance" I was looking for.

 

[Sidewinder]

FWIW

I have shown a board change and partial rewire to my NIC AE also, domestic, but no issues with lighting cpc's on this job, but there may have been other issues that I could not identify.

He agreed that the circuits off the 2 sub mains & the 1 sub sub main were not my problem!