EICR C2 Query

[v3e]

Hi guys,

I'm looking for a bit of advice. Basically I let out a few properties. I generally have them rewired prior to letting and had an EICR done prior to it being mandatory. For a bit of background, the electrician I normally use is of retiring age so i've used my lettings agents electrician (thinking this would be easier).

Up to now the new electrician has inspected two properties and gave "unsatisfactory" results on both

Property 1 is an upper floor maisonette, built in roughly 1990, it had a new consumer box, and an EICR 10 years ago.

* Unable to loacte incomming water earth bonding/stop tap FI
* Meter box damaged and full of debris, also open to weather C2
* Inspection Schedule Item 3.7: Condition and accessibility of main protective bonding conductor
connections (543.3.2; 544.1.2) requires further investigation without delay. FI

Being a newer build upper maisonette, I believe the incoming water earth bonding is actually located in the cavity wall, and after a lot of explaining and him going to the property he agreed testing the presence of the connection was satisfactory. Is this something that you guys would note as a FI, or is this just common sense to use a test to gather this? The electrician wanted to charge £30/hr to investigate this, on top of his £160 fee for the certificate.

The external meter box had been damaged, which I replaced. Presumably this would be a C2?

Property 2 is 2 bed terrace, which was completely rewire 5 years ago, when the house was gutted, with a installation certificate and EICR.

* Mechanical/motor issue with extractor hood C2
* Hi end to end cpc continuity - circuit 4 - Downstairs skts (1.05ohms) C2
* Hi Zs (Earth fault loop imeadance) in relation to other cct 10 readings - kitchen sockets cct 10 C2
* Hi end to end neutral continuity - kitchen skts - cct 10 (>99.9ohms) C2
* Hi end to end cpc continuity - kitchen skts - cct 10 (>99.9ohms) C2

5 C2s have been issued.

I would think the cooker hood would be a C3 at most? I haven't actually checked to see what is wrong with this yet.

Not being an electrician, with regards the high readings i'm clueless, not sure if 1.05ohms is "high"? Obviously the >99ohms is excessive.

Again, the electrician has quoted an investigation charge of £30/hr to investigate these issues.

My thoughts are the electrician seems to be looking for work, or even creating problems to "fix", or perhaps i'm over-reacting?

I've called the electrician who wired the house up, and he should be coming out in the next couple of days on the request he issues a EICR, and have a feeling I'll have no issues. I believe if there is anything it will be minor and he'd address as part of the EICR cost (quoted ~£120)

Would be great for your input and thoughts

Thanks,

 

[Murdoch]

Property 1

The water bonding needs to be located

not sure I agree with the meter cupboard C2 but it needs to be fixed

what circuit is the inspector referring to? 
 

property 2

the cooker hood itself is an appliance and should only warrant a comment 

circuit 4 reading is meaningless without the end to end readings of the live and neutral

the kitchen sockets deffo C2

as for his costs, he’s cheaper than me - where are you in the UK - location matters a lot 

has he given you any idea how long it may take? That would help

 

[ProDave]

If anything this calls into question the competence of the previous electrician.  It looks like there are a lot of loose connections an a property that was rewired only 5 years ago.

£30 per hour is a fair rate. Plenty charge more.

 

[v3e]

Thanks for the quick response.

Property 1 - he was mainly concerned the with the bonding, think the 3rd item was re-referring from that from what i could make out?

Property 2 

Circuit 4 - hopefully this is what you need:

r1 0.48

rn 0.45

r2 1.05

Located in the Midlands, Coventry.

No indication of time and what the actual issues are. Are things like this just generally a loose wire someplace?

 

[Andy™]

to be fair, that does seem reasonable

for the cooker hood, stalled motors can burn out. id say C2 is justified as its a potential fire hazard. open circuits would indicate a fault and potentially be overloading cables. no issue with C2 there. high end to end on cpc on sockets, potentially loose connection if its way out from what it should be compared to L&N

unable to locate water would be FI. if you cant find it, you cant verify it. its possible to test and make a reasonable assumption that its done and C3 though depending on installation

If anything this calls into question the competence of the previous electrician.  It looks like there are a lot of loose connections an a property that was rewired only 5 years ago.

£30 per hour is a fair rate. Plenty charge more.

my thoughts too, seems to be a lot of loose connections here

 

[Murdoch]

On balance I think you’ve paid the right sort of money to get decent EICR’s (far too many people think they can be done for £50) and they appear reasonably thorough.

£30 for remedial work is ok too

re the 2nd property, are you expecting the original spark to do an EICR for free?

 

[v3e]

For the 2nd property. Was going to get the original spark to do the EICR @ £120.00 and see if he finds the same issues. Was unsure whether to advise it's "failed" by another electrician before or after I see he results, and see what he says? Or am I just wasting my time and money?

Obviously you can't see the property and have no idea what the actual issue is to give an estimate of the work involved, but would you expect this to be an hours work, or are we talking a lot more time than that? Is it likely just loose connections?

 

[Murdoch]

For the 2nd property. Was going to get the original spark to do the EICR @ £120.00 and see if he finds the same issues. Was unsure whether to advise it's "failed" by another electrician before or after I see he results, and see what he says? Or am I just wasting my time and money?

Its a bit like a car MOT - different test centres spot different issues

I would get the original spark to fix the problems BUT check how much he'll charge to update the EICR

Good thing is that you didn't get C2 for lack of metal fuseboard and lack of SPD's

 

[v3e]

Cheers guy, you've really helped. It's just really frustrating when you try to do everything right and then you end up with a long list of issues! It's giving me concerns on if I'll find issues on the other properties now.. Just don't want the newly plastered properties ripping apart!

I think I'll let the original spark attend and fix as it was his install, and issue an EICR.

It then may be worth getting the new electrician to double check the remedial works and then pass it off also. This should then hopefully put an end to issues being picked up.

 

[Murdoch]

Cheers guy, you've really helped. It's just really frustrating when you try to do everything right and then you end up with a long list of issues! It's giving me concerns on if I'll find issues on the other properties now.. Just don't want the newly plastered properties ripping apart!

This is precisely the point of mandatory EICR's 

The only way to confirm things are correct is though repeat testing on a regular basis...........................

Don't be surprised if other properties get issues flagged - if you trust this spark you've used, get him to do the others ........ unless the tenancy changes you have until 31st Mar '21 to get satisfactory EICR's on all rental properties

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Property 2 

Circuit 4 - hopefully this is what you need:

r1 0.48

rn 0.45

r2 1.05

To put things into perspective for you..

If the property was rewired approx 5 years ago...

This socket circuit will be using 2.5mm Twin & Earth cable that has a CPC (Earth wire) with a 1.5mm csa copper cable..

The Live & Neutral will both be 2.5mm csa.

There are tables in BS7671, (wiring regulations), that give the resistance values per meter for all of the standard sizes of copper cables used...

From these tables you can work out approximate cable lengths...

r1 (Live)  tested at 0.48 suggests 64.8m of cable

rn (Neutral) tested at 0.45 suggests 60.7m of cable

[ so far less than 5m measured difference between 2 of the 3 conductors in the same cable, maybe just poor connection on test meter? }

BUT...  r2 (Earth AKA cpc) tested at 1.05 suggests  86.8m of cable...

Which implies it is either 20+m longer than the other wires in the same cable...

Or there is a poor connection at a termination.. (probably in the back of a socket)....

somewhere round the circuit that should be identified,   

Hope that helps put some of your numbers into context...

The hourly charges look perfectly reasonable to me..

And I am in the Midlands, but on the other side of Birmingham from you..

(I guess maybe 35 - 40 miles away max)..

So I would be giving you a bill for a similar amount for an EICR and the hourly rate for further investigation...

P.S.

ALL bonding connections, (e.g.  gas, water), should be accessible for inspection & testing..

So they should NOT be hidden in cavities, behind kitchen units, boxed in with pipes in the down-stairs loo.. etc...  etc...

Guinness