Eicr, Rcd-Sockets And Inflatable Hot-Tubs

[pjam]

I have a let property with an EICR from last year. The electrician that did it made the point that the socket nearest my front door would be the likely one to use if using an electrical appliance outdoors, and that it could be considered unsuitable for this as it was not RCD protected and I think he said something about the earth but I am not sure. In any case he took it no further as it is not situated for that purpose (half way up the hall) and is fine for indoor appliances. 

However, I now find my tenants have put an inflatable hot-tub (from Tesco) in the front garden which they are refusing to remove. I know these are supposed to be suitable for running off a regular socket, but I can't help feeling that this contrary to the use my EICR has passed the electrical wiring for and that as a landlord, given I can clearly see what they are doing, that I may be liable either for an unsafe installation or in the worse case for any accidents that may result. 

I know you can insert a plug-in RCD at the socket but feel that may not be the point in this case as it depends on the tenant doing it and is not therefore permanent/fool=proof, and I am unclear if that is the only issue or there are additional earthing requirements. To be honest, I don't know which socket they are using in any case. They could equally be running it from the living room out of the window. Does an electrician have any advice? Is what they are doing OK or not? Many Thanks PJ

 

[Andy™]

i wouldnt have given it a safisfactory report without an RCD. as for 'something about the earth', either its done correctly, or it isnt done, which again would be unsatisfactory. a copy of the report & some pics of the consumer unit would would be a good help

 

[ProDave]

From next year, all rental properties in Scotland will need an EICR that says Satisfactory, i.e all recommended remedial work has been done.

It's been quite some time since an RCD has been needed for some sockets so there's not much excuse, particularly as the solution needn't be particularly expensive.

I find the idea of an inflatable hot tub in a front garden in Edinburgh mildly amusing.

 

[pjam]

If you mean the fuse box, it was installed last year just prior to the EICR and is BS EN 60947-3 - given a C3 rating and as such was not changed (a lot of other work was carried out to deal with C1 and C2 issues).

I can't send a picture as I don't have easy access to the flat with the tenants there.

I am not sure about the 'something about the earth'. All I really took from the discussion was that this was not a suitable socket to be designated for outdoor use. In that case, presumably none of the others are either. 

I am less chuffed - it's a basement property and I envisage potential indoor water too if the thing has a sudden leak. The advice I was given was that C3 issues were 'recommended' and C1 and C2 should be carried out, which they were and the letting agent safety person was happy with that. All sort of extra earthing, upgrading of earthing  and IP rated lights, some tinkering with circuits, bringing spurs into the ring sockets etc etc. For some reason I was advised against an RCD unit, but can't remember why.

 

[ProDave]

Does your electrician wear spurs?

A CU installed just last year pretty damn well ought to have an RCD or two.

BS-EN 60947-3 is the specification for a main switch, not the whole CU.  It would normally have a main switch as well as one or more RCD's

Was it the same electrician that changed the CU that also did the EICR?  if not then a C3 for lack of RCD could well be his opinion of the install if he truly believed the CU was old and it complied with the regulations in force when it was installed.

If you really have a CU without an RCD, the easiest fix is fit an rcbo for all the socket circuits and other important things like a shower.

 

[pjam]

That's not helpful.  You may not approve of my electrucian, but for now my EICR is good and will have to do until these tenants move out as further work will be disruptive. We did everything required and as many C3s as we could that did not involve taking the walls down.

My question is, is it safe for this hot-tub to be used or should I insist they get rid of it?

I am also unclear about what exactly would be done to make it safe. Is having an RCD fuse box enough, as that could reasonably be done, or is there anything else about sockets used for outdoor equipment I should know about?

 

[ProDave]

You are dead right I don't approve of an electrician that did a consumer unit change a year ago and did not fit any rcd's.  was he a member of any of the schemes like Select, NICEIC etc?

No it's not safe. At the very least buy them a plug in RCD adapter for that socket for now as a temporary measure.

How are they running the cable out? just out the door or a window when they want to use it?

I have already told you the fix, replace the mcb's currently there for the sockets and any shower, for rcbo's.  This is not "disruptive" it will take an electrician an hour or 2 to change them and test everything.

Or an even quicker simpler fix is replace that one mains socket for one with a built in rcd.

P.S I suggest you get a different electrician, the one(s) you have are not competent.

* It's still not clear if the electrician that did the EICR is the same one that changed the CU a year ago.

 

[Andy™]

if it was changed a year ago and diesnt have any RCD's, then whoever fitted it is a cowboy. end of, no way around it

That's not helpful.  You may not approve of my electrucian, but for now my EICR is good

unfortunately, whilst you have have a 'good' report, it does sound worthless.

next time its due, get the same incompetent 'electrician' back to re-do it, save you having to get the wiring made safe

 

[Evans Electric]

Mr Pjam I admire you for being a responsible landlord ,    you have taken professional advice , you have your EICR  which should have clearly stated that the board fitted last year MUST contain RCDs  .   It must be a modern board so it be simple to insert the correct protection .

Your question was  " Are my tenants doing the right thing ?" 

The answer is no .     Any equipment used outdoors MUST have RCD protection .

You have been ill advised by your electrician .  

And there is something vague about earthing that needs to be addressed too . 

You have acted in a responsible manner which I applaud , but the RCD and possible earth problem need addressing but not by your Mr Hopalong McCassidy 

 

[Andy™]

really need pics of the board... maybe an admin could allow him to post them?

 

[NozSpark]

I would have thought that if you have received a satisfactory EICR that you now believe to be substandard,,, that you will still be liable for anything that happens, I.e. that su standard EICR will not absolve you of liability

 

[Sidewinder]

OP,

IF you have had a relacement CU fitted by an electrician within the last year, which it seems like, then this was after January 2014, so you need to realise that to have a 13A 230V socket outlet not protctd by an RCD is somewhat dubious.

Just because you contractd this to a so called competent electrician, does not absolve you of ANY legal responsibility, you are still totally resonsible, presonally (unless the rental company is Ltd.) for the electrical installation in the premises.

I find it hard to believe that it is acceptable to tell, your tennant that they can't use their inflatable hot tub.

The socket outlet that they are using, MUST be RCD protected with a 30mA RCD to have been compliant with BS7671 & building regulations requirements, even, if I understand things correctly,in Scotland at the time the board was changed.

So, YOU are the one that is heading for the dock, if something happens, and telling ghem they can't do things in their own home is not an option.

There are many truly competent people on this forum who can assist and advise you.

Depending on what happens, you might even meet some of us across the dock as expert witnesses.

Give us the exact and correct information the we can help you.

What does the Electrical Installation Certificate for the Consumer Unit change last year say, because the EICR is not a substitute document for the original EIC, which you must have had from your electrician, else they have defrauded you out of money.

 

[apprentice87]

I agree totally with the previous post 1000000%. You CANNOT tell a tenant they cannot do certain things in THEIR home because YOUR wiring is unsafe!!!!!!!

Do you have a problem with Tesco?????

If you are worried about water from the thing getting into the flat, THEN INSURE AGAINST IT.

You CANNOT stop them from using the hot tub because a person is entitled to "quiet enjoyment" of their home.

Read this;

"Under Common Law all landlords are under an implied obligation to allow their tenants “quiet enjoyment” of the premises let to them meaning that a landlord must ensure that no one, be it the landlord himself or an employee or his agent shall interfere with his tenant’s right to possession of and to the lawful use and enjoyment of the premises.  “Enjoyment” in this context means to have the use and benefit of a right rather than to derive pleasure from it.  If this right is substantially interfered with a tenant may claim damages or possibly an injunction to stop the interference"

Since no doubt Tesco have sold THOUSANDS of these things, you will have a hard time trying to show that you can prevent them from having the hot tub, as they will have no problem at all establishing that they are not carrying out any kind of "unusual" activity. As has been said, YOU are the one that is liable to be standing in a dock, not them. Secondly, you sue them, you will get nowhere, because they presumably have no assets. They on the other hand, KNOW you own the building, so would have plenty to levy distraint against.

Telling one of us that it is "not helpful" because we do not give you the answer you wanted, is just childish, but there you are...

Oh and C1 and C2 codes DO NOT mean "sort them out if you can be arsed when you get round to it" they mean;

C1 – Danger present. Risk of injury. Immediate remedial action required.

C2 – Potentially dangerous. Urgent remedial action required.

There.. Was that helpful???

john....

 

[apprentice87]

Oh and "For some reason I was advised against an RCD unit, but can't remember why" Well let me tell you.... Because the electrician thought you wiring was in that bad a state that the thing would trip all the time.

This is a bit like saying "Do not take your car for an MOT because it will fail"

john..

 

[Jono Pashley]

None compliant board change. You NEED to get the whole thing looked at urgently as it appears your "electrician" doesnt have a clue. This is potentially placing your tenants at risk and would land you in very hot water should something nasty happen

 

[Sharpend]

You are obviously unsettled by what your electrician has or has not done, otherwise why would you ask here?

I suspect though that your greater concern is a flood from the hot tub rather than electrocution. ?

 

[ProDave]

No word from the OP for a day now. I suspect he's not going to do anything and will just hope his EICR gets him out of the brown smelly stuff when his tenant is found dead in the blow up hot tub.

A normal hot tub is bad enough, a glorified blow up paddling pool with a heater in it really DOES need an rcd to protect it.

I hope for the sake of the tenant, he takes the advice and gets a proper electrician to look at it and remedy the lack of rcd protection.  I would also suggest he reports last years "electrician" who fitted a CU without rcd's to trading standards.

 

[Andy™]

can you report yourself to trading standards?

 

[Sidewinder]

No word from the OP for a day now. I suspect he's not going to do anything and will just hope his EICR gets him out of the brown smelly stuff when his tenant is found dead in the blow up hot tub.

A normal hot tub is bad enough, a glorified blow up paddling pool with a heater in it really DOES need an rcd to protect it.

I hope for the sake of the tenant, he takes the advice and gets a proper electrician to look at it and remedy the lack of rcd protection.  I would also suggest he reports last years "electrician" who fitted a CU without rcd's to trading standards.

It won't, the landlord the same as a business operating in a premises is responsible for the electrical safety of their employees/tenants.

IF the smelly stuff hits the rotating air moving device then the PIR is worthless, the EICR for the board change would have more value though.

The landlord is still responsible under Statute Law.

However, as the OP seems to have disappeared then it may well be that they do not like the answers as it proves their guilt and that their so called electrician has done the work incorrectly.

Goodness only knows.

 

[ProDave]

or pjam had a shot in the hot tub?