Electric Vans - Range

[PaulieN]

I don’t worry about replacing my engine or gearbox as it’s correctly serviced and will be good for a few hundred k miles, years after it’s left my possession, I’m not sure these batteries have that sort of longevity

The warranty pretty much takes care of the few failures caused by actual faulty packs as anything amiss will have happened well within the first 8 years or so. Beyond that, if they're behaving as expected EV batteries will last many more years, whilst very slowly losing capacity. In my cars case, my average real world range is currently about 320 miles in cold weather, so even a very old, very high mileage pack that's dropped to about 70% capacity will give a useful range of over 220 miles or so.

A few of your well maintained engines and gearboxes will fail anyway, as, no doubt, a few out of warranty batteries will. So what? My high end tesla battery out of pocket would cost about £20k new to replace, or I could source a good used one from a salvage car for about half that. Similar costs to a high end prestige V8 engine replacement probably, at which time the owners would each asses the route to take, fix with new parts, fix with good used parts, or sell on as salvage dependent on the market value at the time and their own preferences.

I suppose if I did decide to keep the car forever, I could put aside £1500 a year or so and invest it over the next decade to fund any possible replacement cost. That could be funded from the £3500 a year the Tesla saves me compared to running my last Petrol car, a V8 Audi A8.

 

[PaulieN]

Talking of EV batteries, I hear they don’t like salt water, apparently they instantaneously combust and can keep reigniting for hours?
According to reports following hurricane Ian in the USA? So does this render them dangerous coastal areas?

Well, like most things, prolonged immersion in salt water is terrible. They are watertight in normal use IP64 I think, but if salt water gets in under extreme conditions or damage, yes they will of course short out causing a fire.

When damp seeps in it takes hours or days for combustion to start, it's certainly not instantaneous like a Petrol fire, and whilst they do indeed burn well once alight, this is largely contained within the metal enclosure. You'd have to be quite the idiot hanging around close to the car on purpose to be at much risk compared to a Petrol car fire.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Do you worry about replacing your engine and gearbox of your current car?
There’s no evidence of EV batteries needing to be changed except for the Nissan Leaf which has very poor thermal management. When an EV does eventually suffer battery failure, that’s deemed to be when the battery has degraded to 80%, still perfectly usable.

An article from Oct 2021, suggest that most EV manufactures battery warranties are 7 or 8 years...
And although traditional ICE's do not have any such warranty length.. 7 or 8 years is a relatively short lifespan for a vehicle power unit.?

https://www.buyacar.co.uk/cars/economical-cars/electric-cars/1615/electric-car-battery-life#:~:text=Like traditional car warranties, carmakers cover electric car,will replace or repair the unit for you.

Reality has proven that many ICE's will still outstrip this lifespan duration comfortably, (assuming normal servicing & maintenance has been carried out), obviously with a few less horsepower.. but still very functional.

Irrespective of if you like programs such as Top Gear or Grand Tour, they do frequently show the capabilities of various very old second-hand traditional ICE vehicles..

OR...
from personal experience.. Our previous family car was just over 15 years old, 160,000miles+ when we changed it..
But it could still tow a caravan 270+ miles on a single tank, taking us fully loaded on holiday down to Cornwall..
(we only sold this people carrier, {plastic body panels, Galv steel/aluminium chassis/frame so minimal corrosion}, as we no longer needed a 7-seater)

Do you think many EV's could do a 270mile journey, single refuel/recharge, towing a caravan, on its original battery, when it is 15+ years old??

IMHO, The Big stumbling blocks for the average man on the street that still need to be resolved are;

Range.
Engine lifespan.
Re-charge/re-fuel time.
Cost.

If the coming years EV development can mimic the sort of progress of the computer industry in the 1980's and early 90's..
where I think some statistics stated that processing power and memory capacity were doubling every 6 months..?

Then hopefully in a couple of years EV's will have solved a few of the stumbling blocks for the average family who are still currently struggling with general cost of living, fuel bills and wages.. before they could even consider selling their second-hand petrol or diesel car!!!!!!

At the moment most EV's are still luxury toys for the well off, or those who can claim some sort of financial assistance.
The average man on the street can only dream of buying an EV.

 

[PaulieN]

An article from Oct 2021, suggest that most EV manufactures battery warranties are 7 or 8 years...
And although traditional ICE's do not have any such warranty length.. 7 or 8 years is a relatively short lifespan for a vehicle power unit.?

https://www.buyacar.co.uk/cars/economical-cars/electric-cars/1615/electric-car-battery-life#:~:text=Like traditional car warranties, carmakers cover electric car,will replace or repair the unit for you.

Reality has proven that many ICE's will still outstrip this lifespan duration comfortably, (assuming normal servicing & maintenance has been carried out), obviously with a few less horsepower.. but still very functional.

Irrespective of if you like programs such as Top Gear or Grand Tour, they do frequently show the capabilities of various very old second-hand traditional ICE vehicles..

OR...
from personal experience.. Our previous family car was just over 15 years old, 160,000miles+ when we changed it..
But it could still tow a caravan 270+ miles on a single tank, taking us fully loaded on holiday down to Cornwall..
(we only sold this people carrier, {plastic body panels, Galv steel/aluminium chassis/frame so minimal corrosion}, as we no longer needed a 7-seater)

Do you think many EV's could do a 270mile journey, single refuel/recharge, towing a caravan, on its original battery, when it is 15+ years old??

IMHO, The Big stumbling blocks for the average man on the street that still need to be resolved are;

Range.
Engine lifespan.
Re-charge/re-fuel time.
Cost.

If the coming years EV development can mimic the sort of progress of the computer industry in the 1980's and early 90's..
where I think some statistics stated that processing power and memory capacity were doubling every 6 months..?

Then hopefully in a couple of years EV's will have solved a few of the stumbling blocks for the average family who are still currently struggling with general cost of living, fuel bills and wages.. before they could even consider selling their second-hand petrol or diesel car!!!!!!

At the moment most EV's are still luxury toys for the well off, or those who can claim some sort of financial assistance.
The average man on the street can only dream of buying an EV.

Range is almost there in cars for most use cases now. Vans do need to catch up.

Motor lifespan? Absolutely no issues at all, EV motors are most likely to run a million miles, there's only one moving part. Might need new shaft bearings after eye watering mileages beyond anything an engine will do.

Charging time? normal use case from home, you'll only ever plug in at night when you get back. On road parking only, or unusually large mileages, yes, still a bit of a pain, but about an hour tops.

Cost? Yep, needs to work down to lower cost segment cars. It's getting there, look up the MG4, it's very nearly the same cost as a Petrol equivalent now at £26k. Lower cost circa £20k new cars are going to be here within the next 2 years. BYD Dolphin is coming here: https://insideevs.com/news/527019/byd-dolphin-enters-market-china/ & the Ora Funky Cat: https://gwmora.co.uk/

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Range is almost there in cars for most use cases now. Vans do need to catch up.

?????????????

Sorry but no its not...!!

Motor lifespan? Absolutely no issues at all, EV motors are most likely to run a million miles, there's only one moving part. Might need new shaft bearings after eye watering mileages beyond anything an engine will do.

Electric motors can & DO fail!!!

[I note you did NOT comment on the abilities of a 15+ year old EV doing a 270+ mile trip towing a caravan fully laden on a single charge?]

Take off your rose-tinted EV sunglasses and you may actually see that range is still lacking significantly at the moment..
I am still waiting to find any EV that can do the best part of 600 miles in less than 10mins refueling???

Whist a minority of the population may only venture a few miles a week from their doorstep..
Others of us do have families / friends living across a wider geographical area..
And/or other social activities that involve a bit more regular travel..

e.g. I have sons/daughters/grandchildren in places such as Sheffield / Cheltenham / Portsmouth.. And we are in the Midlands..
We are currently just thinking if we want to pop down to Portsmouth for the day to watch our youngest son do "The Great South Run" next weekend... ?
280+ mile round trip.. piece of pi55 in our current diesel. with NO need to refuel or waste any time en-route...
I am NOT convinced this would be as easy or convenient with any currently available EV costing £10,000+ more than our current car?

A few years back when one of our daughters was at Southampton Uni & celebrating her 21st Birthday..
We had a single day trip collecting brothers & sisters..
Midlands->Worcester->Bath Uni->Royal Holloway Uni->Southhampton, (family celebrations) then ->back to Royal Holloway->Back to Bath Uni->back to Worcester->Back home.. just so we could have some family time together..

If we had been living in an EV world.. my daughter would NOT of had her family 21st celebrations!!!!

And as or when my eldery dad, currently 93, passes away.. there will probably be my children, (his grandchildren), all coming back to the Midlands at relatively short notice..
If they all did have EV's, I am at a loss to know how & where they would/could recharge close to our home to allow them to pop down and return home, same or next day..?
That is of course assuming they could afford to buy one in the first place...?

There is a VERY LONG way to go on the tech improvement to be anywhere near the capabilities of the majority of ICE cars.

 

[johnb2713]

I have some drill batteries like that, they are only any good now for the lesser tools, lights and nail gun anything that needs a bit of grunt such as a drill impact or grinder they collapse within minutes!! Are car batteries the same?

LifeP04 batteries are very stable compared to earlier battery chemistry and way better than Lithium Ion used in power tools. When getting down to the 80% capacity, they can still deliver most of the amps, just for a shorter time.

 

[johnb2713]

I don’t worry about replacing my engine or gearbox as it’s correctly serviced and will be good for a few hundred k miles, years after it’s left my possession, I’m not sure these batteries have that sort of longevity

What evidence have you seen to make you 'not sure'? You say 'My worry would be when the batteries need replacing' but that will be many thousands of miles, most likely well beyond the life of your ICE engine and gearbox yet you say you don't worry about those because they're maintained correctly, a battery doesn't need any maintenance.
For what it's worth our two EV's, one has 160,000 miles and the other around 80,000 miles neither is showing any noticeable difference in range or performance, the 160,000 mile on shows 1.6% defecation when measured, the 80,000 mile one 1.1% when measured. The degradation rate is also falling i.e. most of it occurred at the start, now it's minimal as the miles pile on and years go by.
You should worry little about batteries, more about wear and tear on ICE every time you start it up cam chains stretching, fuel pumps wearing, ingesting dust and dirt, engine oil contaminated with fuel, they're the things to worry about not batteries.

 

[johnb2713]

?????????????
Sorry but no its not...!!

The range is there for most cars for general use

Electric motors can & DO fail!!!

They absolutely can, but not as likely to suffer failure as ICE

[I note you did NOT comment on the abilities of a 15+ year old EV doing a 270+ mile trip towing a caravan fully laden on a single charge?]

The quotes were of course general daily use rather than the exceptions, developments are underway with caravans that will make that easily possible.

Take off your rose-tinted EV sunglasses and you may actually see that range is still lacking significantly at the moment..
I am still waiting to find any EV that can do the best part of 600 miles in less than 10mins refueling???

You will be waiting a long time. Refuelling an EV is really convenient in my book, I go to the cinema / see a show / shopping / sleep while my cars conveniently charge, a lot of the time free, THATS good, stood outside in a howling gale hands stinking of diesel from the pump, footwear contaminated from spilled fuel - NO THANKS.

Whist a minority of the population may only venture a few miles a week from their doorstep..
Others of us do have families / friends living across a wider geographical area..
And/or other social activities that involve a bit more regular travel..

e.g. I have sons/daughters/grandchildren in places such as Sheffield / Cheltenham / Portsmouth.. And we are in the Midlands..
We are currently just thinking if we want to pop down to Portsmouth for the day to watch our youngest son do "The Great South Run" next weekend... ?
280+ mile round trip.. piece of pi55 in our current diesel. with NO need to refuel or waste any time en-route...

Absolutely true and incurr any current and future city emissions charges. There are several EV's that can do just the same.

I am NOT convinced this would be as easy or convenient with any currently available EV costing £10,000+ more than our current car?

Thats great, we EV drivers need unconvinced people like you to keep buying diesel, paying pollution charges and paying road tax which will be increasing to keep funding for us - thank YOU! It also makes charging easier too.

A few years back when one of our daughters was at Southampton Uni & celebrating her 21st Birthday..
We had a single day trip collecting brothers & sisters..
Midlands->Worcester->Bath Uni->Royal Holloway Uni->Southhampton, (family celebrations) then ->back to Royal Holloway->Back to Bath Uni->back to Worcester->Back home.. just so we could have some family time together..

If we had been living in an EV world.. my daughter would NOT of had her family 21st celebrations!!!!

You really consider that a valid reason? REALLY?

And as or when my eldery dad, currently 93, passes away.. there will probably be my children, (his grandchildren), all coming back to the Midlands at relatively short notice..
If they all did have EV's, I am at a loss to know how & where they would/could recharge close to our home to allow them to pop down and return home, same or next day..?
That is of course assuming they could afford to buy one in the first place...?

Bottom of the barrel stuff here, of course the pollution from your 1000 miles per day, refuel in 10 seconds diesel is killing us all off anyway.

There is a VERY LONG way to go on the tech improvement to be anywhere near the capabilities of the majority of ICE cars.

Absolutely not, youre so wrong.

 

[Sharpend]

You’re quite right John, if we all had EV’s there would be massive problems with recharging so be thankful

 

[johnb2713]

An article from Oct 2021, suggest that most EV manufactures battery warranties are 7 or 8 years...
And although traditional ICE's do not have any such warranty length.. 7 or 8 years is a relatively short lifespan for a vehicle power unit.?

It doesnt die at the end of the warranty period, it's a good indication of the confidence the manufacturer has of their product.

Reality has proven that many ICE's will still outstrip this lifespan duration comfortably, (assuming normal servicing & maintenance has been carried out), obviously with a few less horsepower.. but still very functional.

Really? please provide a link to any such study / research. EV's havent been around long enough for you to make such an outlandish claim.

Irrespective of if you like programs such as Top Gear or Grand Tour, they do frequently show the capabilities of various very old second-hand traditional ICE vehicles..

They do and you point is?

OR...
from personal experience.. Our previous family car was just over 15 years old, 160,000miles+ when we changed it..
But it could still tow a caravan 270+ miles on a single tank, taking us fully loaded on holiday down to Cornwall..
(we only sold this people carrier, {plastic body panels, Galv steel/aluminium chassis/frame so minimal corrosion}, as we no longer needed a 7-seater)

Wow.......... my electric cars can still get me around at less than 1.5p per mile............ SO WHAT? I really dont see what points you are trying make?

Do you think many EV's could do a 270mile journey, single refuel/recharge, towing a caravan, on its original battery, when it is 15+ years old??

Do you think many ICE cars can do 0-60 in 7 seconds while only burning 1.5p per mile of fuel? Do you think many ICE cars can heat / cool the interior whilst parked not running the engine all controlled remotely? Do you think many ICE cars have £0 refuelling cost? Do you think many ICE cars have £0 road tax?

IMHO, The Big stumbling blocks for the average man on the street that still need to be resolved are;

Range.
Engine lifespan.
Re-charge/re-fuel time.
Cost.

Range is now much better over the last couple of years 280 to 320 being quite normal now.
Engine Lifespan has never been an issue, a complete myth bandered around by ICE drivers, there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE to suggest EV motor and drive systems are anywhere near as unreliable as their ICE counterparts.
Refuelling Time Rapid charging is also more readily available 0 to 80% in 20 minutes.
Cost there are more lower cost EV's appearing on the market such as the MG4.

If the coming years EV development can mimic the sort of progress of the computer industry in the 1980's and early 90's..
where I think some statistics stated that processing power and memory capacity were doubling every 6 months..?

Then hopefully in a couple of years EV's will have solved a few of the stumbling blocks for the average family who are still currently struggling with general cost of living, fuel bills and wages.. before they could even consider selling their second-hand petrol or diesel car!!!!!!

The 'stumbling blocks' you highlight above are totally inaccurate. Cost of living issues you are quite right with petrol and diesel over £8 per gallon, rising road tax etc, EV IS the way to go.

At the moment most EV's are still luxury toys for the well off, or those who can claim some sort of financial assistance.
The average man on the street can only dream of buying an EV.

Well full score of wrongs here, absolutely NOT the case

 

[Sharpend]

EV’s whilst improving, still have a long way to go to compete fully with the ICE, fortunately the days of travelling sales reps is not what it used to be otherwise the public user wouldn’t get a look on at services charging points!!

How easy is an EV to fault find? I believe the BMW has a secret hidden button to reset it or release the drive gear so it can be rolled?
Oh and I have seen a few EV’s broke down stuck in the middle of the road, and at least one of those was an i3.

 

[PaulieN]

?????????????

Sorry but no its not...!!



Electric motors can & DO fail!!!

[I note you did NOT comment on the abilities of a 15+ year old EV doing a 270+ mile trip towing a caravan fully laden on a single charge?]

Take off your rose-tinted EV sunglasses and you may actually see that range is still lacking significantly at the moment..
I am still waiting to find any EV that can do the best part of 600 miles in less than 10mins refueling???

Whist a minority of the population may only venture a few miles a week from their doorstep..
Others of us do have families / friends living across a wider geographical area..
And/or other social activities that involve a bit more regular travel..

e.g. I have sons/daughters/grandchildren in places such as Sheffield / Cheltenham / Portsmouth.. And we are in the Midlands..
We are currently just thinking if we want to pop down to Portsmouth for the day to watch our youngest son do "The Great South Run" next weekend... ?
280+ mile round trip.. piece of pi55 in our current diesel. with NO need to refuel or waste any time en-route...
I am NOT convinced this would be as easy or convenient with any currently available EV costing £10,000+ more than our current car?

A few years back when one of our daughters was at Southampton Uni & celebrating her 21st Birthday..
We had a single day trip collecting brothers & sisters..
Midlands->Worcester->Bath Uni->Royal Holloway Uni->Southhampton, (family celebrations) then ->back to Royal Holloway->Back to Bath Uni->back to Worcester->Back home.. just so we could have some family time together..

If we had been living in an EV world.. my daughter would NOT of had her family 21st celebrations!!!!

And as or when my eldery dad, currently 93, passes away.. there will probably be my children, (his grandchildren), all coming back to the Midlands at relatively short notice..
If they all did have EV's, I am at a loss to know how & where they would/could recharge close to our home to allow them to pop down and return home, same or next day..?
That is of course assuming they could afford to buy one in the first place...?

There is a VERY LONG way to go on the tech improvement to be anywhere near the capabilities of the majority of ICE cars.

Oh, I'm sorry, I thought we were having a friendly chat about pros and cons of EV's, but I can see you just want to hate on them. Fair enough then, believe and do as you wish, yes, I know they don't work for everyone, if they don't suit you, then keep an ICE car, I'm not going to argue with you about it!

 

[Sharpend]

I think it’s known as ‘horses for courses’

 

[johnb2713]

EV’s whilst improving, still have a long way to go to compete fully with the ICE, fortunately the days of travelling sales reps is not what it used to be otherwise the public user wouldn’t get a look on at services charging points!!

Travelling reps are very much decline now, my neighbour is a perfume salesman and used to be away from Monday morning until Friday night, now most of his selling is via ZOOM following on from COVID.

How easy is an EV to fault find?

Easier than ICE for sure, a lot less sensors and systems interacting with each other.

I believe the BMW has a secret hidden button to reset it or release the drive gear so it can be rolled?

There is a manual release for the parking pawl in the transmission.

Oh and I have seen a few EV’s broke down stuck in the middle of the road, and at least one of those was an i3.

There are a few occurrences of course, the i3 suffers from lack of maintenance especially the 12v battery, lose the 12v and the whole system shuts down lighting up a whole manner of warning lights and messages. The sensible step is to replace the 12v battery at 4 years and you don't get the problem. I know of two other i3 breakdowns, one where the motor bearings failed and another where the motor had failed, I'm not convinced the motor itself had failed but the speed controller is an integral part of the motor so the whole unit was replaced. I also know of 1000's of others racking up the miles.

 

[michael8554]

BMW i3's exhibit all sorts of strange problems when the 12V auxiliary battery starts to fail.
Often after only a few years, and very expensive to replace.
My Outlander PHEV also depends on the 12V aux battery to boot the HV systems, but mine is still on the original 2014 battery.
Why is the i3 battery so flakey ?

 

[johnb2713]

BMW i3's exhibit all sorts of strange problems when the 12V auxiliary battery starts to fail.
Often after only a few years, and very expensive to replace.

They generally fail between 5 to 8 years old, they are NOT expensive to replace, I bought mine for £52. They have a shortish life because they are relatively small and potentially highly stressed (20 amp/hr). Like any modern car, 12v supply is crucial, my Range Rover was no different

My Outlander PHEV also depends on the 12V aux battery to boot the HV systems, but mine is still on the original 2014 battery.
Why is the i3 battery so flakey ?

Prepare for a shock when you have to replace the PHEV battery, they ARE expensive and can cause all sorts of issues when you replace it. As stated above, i3 batteries are not flakey at all.

 

[michael8554]

Most i3 owners will be stranded at the side of the road or at home when the 12v battery fails.

Back at the BMW workshop they will install the BMW recommended battery and perform the reset of the monitoring software.

Most i3 owners won't have the means of doing that.

All that will be, as I said, very expensive.

My PHEV battery doesn't need any software reset.

Yes they are about £200 but last at least double the time.

 

[johnb2713]

Most i3 owners will be stranded at the side of the road or at home when the 12v battery fails.

Back at the BMW workshop they will install the BMW recommended battery and perform the reset of the monitoring software.

Most i3 owners won't have the means of doing that.

All that will be, as I said, very expensive.

My PHEV battery doesn't need any software reset.

Yes they are about £200 but last at least double the time.

£85 at an independent BMW specialist , the monitoring software only records the date, the car is perfectly happy not having a new date entered in the list.
As I said, not expensive.

 

[johnb2713]

Another battery development…..

https://insideevs.com/news/615605/s...rVs_x1q_nqUykCcWxWYiu-vATeB0uUe6uErj2-9dKEh3E

 

[binky]

An article from Oct 2021, suggest that most EV manufactures battery warranties are 7 or 8 years...
And although traditional ICE's do not have any such warranty length.. 7 or 8 years is a relatively short lifespan for a vehicle power unit.?

https://www.buyacar.co.uk/cars/economical-cars/electric-cars/1615/electric-car-battery-life#:~:text=Like traditional car warranties, carmakers cover electric car,will replace or repair the unit for you.

Reality has proven that many ICE's will still outstrip this lifespan duration comfortably, (assuming normal servicing & maintenance has been carried out), obviously with a few less horsepower.. but still very functional.

Irrespective of if you like programs such as Top Gear or Grand Tour, they do frequently show the capabilities of various very old second-hand traditional ICE vehicles..

OR...
from personal experience.. Our previous family car was just over 15 years old, 160,000miles+ when we changed it..
But it could still tow a caravan 270+ miles on a single tank, taking us fully loaded on holiday down to Cornwall..
(we only sold this people carrier, {plastic body panels, Galv steel/aluminium chassis/frame so minimal corrosion}, as we no longer needed a 7-seater)

Do you think many EV's could do a 270mile journey, single refuel/recharge, towing a caravan, on its original battery, when it is 15+ years old??

IMHO, The Big stumbling blocks for the average man on the street that still need to be resolved are;

Range.
Engine lifespan.
Re-charge/re-fuel time.
Cost.

If the coming years EV development can mimic the sort of progress of the computer industry in the 1980's and early 90's..
where I think some statistics stated that processing power and memory capacity were doubling every 6 months..?

Then hopefully in a couple of years EV's will have solved a few of the stumbling blocks for the average family who are still currently struggling with general cost of living, fuel bills and wages.. before they could even consider selling their second-hand petrol or diesel car!!!!!!

At the moment most EV's are still luxury toys for the well off, or those who can claim some sort of financial assistance.
The average man on the street can only dream of buying an EV.

it's fair to say an EV may not suit your needs, doesn't suite mine currently either, but that doesn't make them garbage. Every EV owner I know loves their car, including the school caretaker, whose not exactly overpaid!

Currently I have my work van, could probbaly do EV with that, but I can't justify the cost. The wife has a small 12 year old diesel Nissan, when that dies it's definetly worth replacing wth EV as she hardly drives it, but again cost savings currently dont justify the change. And my MoHo, just wish is was at least hybrid, would save me a lot of diesel as it gets used for longer trips, like my recent 2500mile tour around Scotland, which oddly enough has lots of charge points. I find the moho uncomfortable to drive for more than 3/4 hours at a time, so even that could go EV possibly given a range of 250miles+ . It's fair to say when in the moho I'm not in a hurry, so regular breaks are not an issue for me.