emergency ltg guidance

[james KEI]

Hey all,

A friend's girlfriend owns a hairdressing shop. the fire warden/marshal popped in the other day to check a few things. there is nothing in place to test/check that the fire alarm and emergency lighting is working, no planned maintenance programme.

can anyone point me to some litreature i can pass on to her, from her perspective, what she should be doing???

should i be checking that the current emg ltg is adequate or will the fire marshall/warden do that??

i'll draw up an emergency lighting test schedule, and i'll pick up a copy of the emg ltg guide (like the on-site guide). is there a ready designed log-book you can buy for this?? i'll check out guidance notes 3 also, to tell her that she needs a PIR every so many years.

thanks for any help, advice

james

 

[NozSpark]

The emergency lighting will need a log book,, you should be able to get them online or through a wholesalers without too much bother,, however for the log book to be valid the circuit will have to have a valid PIR or EIC certificate.

 

[james KEI]

what about if there's no emg ltg installation certificate in the first place?

on a seperate note, i'm pricing a job at a local primary school. straight swapping some old fluroi's to new, there's not emg ltg in place but i don't want to loose the job. do i price for what they've asked and then mention they need to look at having suitable emg lighting installed??

thanks,

james

 

[Manator]

To do any kind of work you should have the required guidance books and BS publications, it is a part of providing competency, to do the work being carried out. When you have any annual assessment, the assessor will look to see if you have this literature, just like you need a copy of the BRB.

If no emergency lighting is present, a proper design and consultation should be carried out, one of the main features and this is also covered in BS7671 is the safety of persons, this can be from the installation itself, and the safe evacuation from danger/s. Any fire alarm installed would also need proper design, there is a danger that if left to those who do not know the regulations, and design an inappropriate system, you could be held liable for prosecution.

I do not need to do it, but I always run a design through with the regional fire safety officer, they normally look blankly at the plans, but it gets them on my side, and any site visits by them are supported with my drawings so they know where everything is.

 

[NozSpark]

A PIR on the EM lighting circuit is enough for the log book,, just because there isn't a cert now doesn't mean one wasn't issued when it was installed..

As for the school I would just do what they are asking you to,,, they will have their own risk assessments in place and will abide by them.

 

[ktguk]

To do any kind of work you should have the required guidance books and BS publications, it is a part of providing competency, to do the work being carried out. When you have any annual assessment, the assessor will look to see if you have this literature, just like you need a copy of the BRB.If no emergency lighting is present, a proper design and consultation should be carried out, one of the main features and this is also covered in BS7671 is the safety of persons, this can be from the installation itself, and the safe evacuation from danger/s. Any fire alarm installed would also need proper design, there is a danger that if left to those who do not know the regulations, and design an inappropriate system, you could be held liable for prosecution.

I do not need to do it, but I always run a design through with the regional fire safety officer, they normally look blankly at the plans, but it gets them on my side, and any site visits by them are supported with my drawings so they know where everything is.

think the OP knows this, he was asking for advice on which publications or is there maybe a course he could go on

id do what was asked but worth mentioning it or asking to see the risk assessment as bs:5839-1 is code of practice not law

 

[kme]

To answer the OP:

Standard : BS5266

Guides: www.ringtail.co.uk produce a PDF :"Emergency lighting design Guidance"

The ECA also produce a PDF :"Guidance on emergency lighting legislation"

As for questions of competancy: only you know if you think your design would stand up to expert scrutiny.

KME

 

[Sidewinder]

Please remember the law here is the RRFSO, this is STATUTE law, however, the onus is on the responsible person, however, IF you are brought in as a specialist then they can try to palm this off on you as you are the electrician and is is reasonable that you should know the relevant law, as you are a professional and you are offering your services to resolve the issues that they have, thus by the invitation to treat you are deeming yourself competent.

This is where your PI would kick in IF there was an issue to defend you if you muck it up.

 

[Manator]

Very true Sidewinder, in fact I can give you a working example.

A brand new community health centre was fitted with a fire alarm system the electrical contractors had not previously done such a large scale job. Anyway 3 months after it opened a routine fire alarm test was to be carried out, all the patients and doctors, dentists had been pre warned about the test. The fire alarm was sounded at around 10am, a patient in the dentists chair suffered an injury because the sounder fitted inside the room had made him jump. He then proceeded to sue the dentist, an investigation was carried out initially by the primary care trust, who then reported and handed over the the HSE. The end result was that the fire alarm system had been incorrectly installed, and no sounders are to be present in treatment rooms, any indication within the room should come from other sources, or beacons be provided to give visual indication only.

The dentist was more or less absolved from liability, the duty care holder was found to be at fault for not ensuring correct fire alarm use and installation, all of which was passed onto the electrical contractor. A formal prosecution was not carried out, but the extra costs imposed on the contractors put them out of business. Another contractor was brought in to rectify the problems.

It really does pay to do your homework, and do the job right. Many specialist firms, and even electrical suppliers offer a free design, supply and commission service.

 

[james KEI]

i've been briefly reading ICEL 1006 & 1008 which are really good.

the shop already has exisiting emergency lighting & a fire alarm but there is no setup for regular testing of either and so no idea if they actually work!! (i'm not getting involved in the fire alarm testing).

i will contact her and see if she has a certificate for the original design&installation of the emergency lighting and take it from there. i'll see if there is a valid PIR or installation certificate too.

originally all i was going to do, was setup a 'log book' for the emg lighting from now on so that it's being regulary checked etc. but from what i can understand of my quick read, a fire risk asessment needs to be carried out and the emg ltg checked with this to make sure it's adequate and covers all of the pointers

i've looked up a emg ltg course, they seem to generally be 1 day ones but i'm a bit broke so i'll get round to doing that sometime too

 

[Manator]

If you use the guides, which will give you an indication of where the lighting should be, and you carry out a PIR on the emg lighting, it is possible to issue a PIR certificate, and organise proper safety checks, and log books. The probability is that the battery life would have gone past their usefulness, and the lamps may not be as bright as they should be, this is normally tested by a lux meter. It is relatively easy to PIR the emergency lighting, if you have the right equipment, and reference material. The fire alarm is a different story, the gas heads used for testing outputs, plus all the positioning and run down tests can be more involved. Everyone has to learn sometime, so the more you read, and understand the easier it is to become proficient at installing and testing.

 

[james KEI]

hi manator,

just to verify when you say PIR you mean an emergency lighting PIR? i know what you mean about the right material & equiptment. i feel that once i've had a visual and checked they are where i'd put them as i understand it i'd check the lux level one evening and make sure i have the minimum on both escape routes (there's a fire exit at the back and the main shop entrance at the front) which i think is 1lux then i'd be happy to issue a ELPIR. i need to picky up the on site emg ltg guide too as hopefully there will be some useful tips in that.

do you carry out emergency lighting PIR's yourself? i've never been involved in this before, we used to install it as per drawing and that was it. what's the frequency of the emg ltg pir and am i right in thinking the local authority have a copy too??

thanks for the help

james

 

[Manator]

Hi mate, yes I do from time to time carry out PIR's on emergency lighting, and just like it has been suggested it is only valid if there is a PIR done on the supplying circuits. Smaller installs can, with due consideration of the risks, not require local test switches, but be controlled by the mcb, not ideal but is acceptable. Believe it or not, the frequency of testing is daily, obviously this is not a formal test, but a visual test by the appointed person or persons,followed by weekly and monthly checks. It is best to do yearly formal tests, for the fire alarm system they often recommend a formal inspection every 6 months. The local authority do not have a copy, all the certificates issued should be retained in the clients health and safety file, these files will be inspected by any local authority, and used as evidence that the employer has fulfilled as best he/she can, the requirements for health and safety. You should not have any problems doing the PIR, if you read all the guidelines published, just be careful that any advise you give is based on the facts, and not what you think should be done. One failure I often pick up doing a ELPIR, is missing emg fittings near fire fighting equipment, and near first aid posts, this is often not down to the installer, but the fact that these are added after completion. The deviations on your PIR will be an important part of the PIR, and should be filled in with as much detail as possible.

If you have any problems just post here and I am sure the forum members will help you out.

 

[james KEI]

sorry, what's the suggested frequency of the ELPIR? ok, i think i need to speak to her to see what she has and what she doesn't then i can make some decisions as to say you need an eletrical PIR, you need an ELPIR and a setup for checking the emg ltg.

when you carry out the ELPIR, in this scenario, would you ask to see a escape route plan or is it something you'd make up as you go along, same as the fire risk asessment, as it's only a small shop?

thanks for the advise, it's good being able to 'talk' about it!!

thanks, james

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i think i'll make up a template for her emg lt testing and put it all in a folder (instead of buying a log book) so all the emg stuff is together, certificates etc etc. do you have to record the daily check ie a sheet with dates & signiatures to say it's been done/

 

[kme]

You MUST have a log book to provide compliance with 5266 mate.

 

[james KEI]

hi KME,

yes i was going to make a 'log folder' containing all of the paper work, so the sheets listing weekly/monthly/anual checks and any other relevant paperwork is all in that folder. rather than buy a pre made log book and have the other certificates elsewhere.

that's ok isn't it??!! i wasn't not going to do it

thanks,

james