Fire protection in communal stairwells

[binky]

Does anyone have a simplish guide to fire protection of stairwells in flats please?

The flats concerned are purpose built 2and 3 storey, concrete stairwells  From a LGA document "Fire safety in purpose-built blocks of flats"  I have found this, which would suggest a few smoke detectors is all tht mat be required???

20.6 The ability to manage a fire alarm system is rarely possible in a block of flats unless staffed at all times, eg by a concierge or caretaker. Allowing residents to silence and reset a system is inappropriate in these circumstances. Access to use of these facilities also enables major disablement of a fire alarm system. This could expose landlords and others with responsibility for managing fire safety to liability if, through the actions of a resident, the system is left inoperative and fails to perform correctly in the event of a fire. 20.7 In view of the above, only in unusual circumstances will a communal fire detection and alarm system be appropriate for a ‘general needs’ purpose-built block of flats

 

[Sharpend]

Usually a break glass at entrance to stairwell on each floor then smoke detectors and sounders if not an open stairwell at each level,  emergency lighting and that’s about it as I understand ? Others may have specific docs to refer too. 

 

[Evans Electric]

20.6 The ability to manage a fire alarm system is rarely possible in a block of flats unless staffed at all times, eg by a concierge or caretaker. Allowing residents to silence and reset a system is inappropriate in these circumstances. Access to use of these facilities also enables major disablement of a fire alarm system. This could expose landlords and others with responsibility for managing fire safety to liability if, through the actions of a resident, the system is left inoperative and fails to perform correctly in the event of a fire. 20.7 In view of the above, only in unusual circumstances will a communal fire detection and alarm system be appropriate for a ‘general needs’ purpose-built block of flats

This LGA  document  appears to discourage the installation of any fire detection  ,  unbelievable  .      

I'd have thought each flat would have fire/ smoke detection  linked to all flats including the stairwell  .      

 

[Sharpend]

This LGA  document  appears to discourage the installation of any fire detection  ,  unbelievable  .      

I'd have thought each flat would have fire/ smoke detection  linked to all flats including the stairwell  .      

thays exactly what was specified on the last two sets of flats I did, and that’s going back some years too ?? 
 

 

[Phoenix]

This LGA  document  appears to discourage the installation of any fire detection  ,  unbelievable  .      

I'd have thought each flat would have fire/ smoke detection  linked to all flats including the stairwell  .      

The problem with smoke detection linked across flat is you are likely to end up with a lot of false alarms, and from false alarms you get people ignoring alarms. One way round it thats often done, if the issues with 'managing' the fire panel can be addressed is a communial system with smoke detection in the exit routes and a heat in the hallway of each flat, then each flat has idividual systems or one or more mains powered smokes, you only get an alarm if there is a problem on the escape route, or theres a pretty major problem in one of the flats (not burnt toast). You really do need to know the fire design of the building before you can design a system, the LGA document IIRC is specifically buildings designed as "Stay in place" with proper compartmentisation, and where a mass evacuation could jam up the stairwells etc, but was certain events show, some of these buildings werent as effectivly compartmentised as was thought!

 

[binky]

The problem with smoke detection linked across flat is you are likely to end up with a lot of false alarms, and from false alarms you get people ignoring alarms. One way round it thats often done, if the issues with 'managing' the fire panel can be addressed is a communial system with smoke detection in the exit routes and a heat in the hallway of each flat, then each flat has idividual systems or one or more mains powered smokes, you only get an alarm if there is a problem on the escape route, or theres a pretty major problem in one of the flats (not burnt toast). You really do need to know the fire design of the building before you can design a system, the LGA document IIRC is specifically buildings designed as "Stay in place" with proper compartmentisation, and where a mass evacuation could jam up the stairwells etc, but was certain events show, some of these buildings werent as effectivly compartmentised as was thought!

 the general idea is smokes on the stairwells and heat detector in the entrance to each flat to prevent burning toast causing a panic, 

 

[binky]

This LGA  document  appears to discourage the installation of any fire detection  ,  unbelievable  .      

I'd have thought each flat would have fire/ smoke detection  linked to all flats including the stairwell  .      

This is the interesting bit, the small blocks of flats I'm looking at are purpose built, concrete stairwells with no side corridors 2 and 3 stories high. They already have smoke detectors and emergency lighting fitted, but a recent iEICR report has coded the smokes for not being interlinked ( I haven't been to check that yet) and has criticised the emergency lighting for not being on the same MCB as the lighting - never understood that as being a requirement?  So i was looking into requirements for fire detection in such buildings when I found that LGO doc, which suggests nothing is needed at all. Said EICR has also failed the CUs for being plastic - they are mounted to solid concrete walls in understairs cupboard and have failed to catch fire in the last 14 years I've worked there on and off.  Annoying site as they keep going off to other contractors then coming back to me. 

 

[Murdoch]

This is the interesting bit, the small blocks of flats I'm looking at are purpose built, concrete stairwells with no side corridors 2 and 3 stories high. They already have smoke detectors and emergency lighting fitted, but a recent EICR report has coded the smokes for not being interlinked ( I haven't been to check that yet) and has criticised the emergency lighting for not being on the same MCB as the lighting - never understood that as being a requirement?  So i was looking into requirements for fire detection in such buildings when I found that LGO doc, which suggests nothing is needed at all. Said EICR has also failed the CUs for being plastic - they are mounted to solid concrete walls in under stairs cupboard and have failed to catch fire in the last 14 years I've worked there on and off.  Annoying site as they keep going off to other contractors then coming back to me. 

3 phase lighting with the EM on a separate phase / circuit - sounds a bit made up if not

As for the plastic CU - not even the Best Practice Guide notes this as a code any more

Sounds like an EICR to generate work

Why don't they ask you to do the EICR?

 

[NozSpark]

Bear in mind that fire and smoke alarm / detector systems are outside the scope of BS7671 and should only appear as a NOTE at most on an EICR

EM lighting (apart from the electrical safety aspect) is also outside the scope of BS7671.... it's design should be based on a Fire Risk Assessment ,,,,, however, on a side note,  IMHO it should be on the same circuit as the local lighting 

 

[Evans Electric]

Bear in mind that fire and smoke alarm / detector systems are outside the scope of BS7671 and should only appear as a NOTE at most on an EICR

EM lighting (apart from the electrical safety aspect) is also outside the scope of BS7671.... it's design should be based on a Fire Risk Assessment ,,,,, however, on a side note,  IMHO it should be on the same circuit as the local lighting 

This is exactly right ......  Binky's   detectors MAY be  individual  smokes  , fed locally & not interlinked  ...whatever .....  shouldn't be coded as they are outside the EICR remit ...a comment yes  , then someone else,s decision  ,   architect  ,  fire chief ,  council  as to whether its OK or not .     

EM  lighting can be either , own circuit or attached to local .    Personally I think they should be attached to ...say ...the staircase circuit ...not own circuit .    

Same with DOMESTIC  smokes  ...if a dedicated breaker trips ,  good chance no one will know  ,   I've found quite a few dedicated smoke alarm circuits OFF  .  People tend not to look at their consumer units on a regular basis .  

 As I always say ,  we have to remember we are NOT the Electric Police  ......  we may be asked to install fire alarms / EM  lighting  but its not our business to start recommending  etc .     Same with  plastic  consumers ....yes we now fit metal  ones  but theres no remit that I know of  for ripping plastic ones out .    

 

[binky]

Why don't they ask you to do the EICR?

Coz they are weird! I do some work, then they get someone else in, they they come back to me, then they get someone else in.... I think some of the residents have sparky mates? I'm never quite sure whther to be flattered they keep coming back to me or tell them to foxtrot oscar  :^O