Fraudulent Certificate

[ebrcknrdg]

Hi, new member here and homeowner. I asked for an Electrical certificate to be produced when I purchased my home in Sept 2020. One was produced which looked legit, Ill admit I didn't think to double check but not sure if many people like me would have, I am a single mother with two children. Anyway fast forward to last week and I had an electrician round to look at a couple of jobs such as loose sockets etc. When he took the front off the socket he asked who had done the wiring as it wasn't earthed correctly and hadn't been done to a good standard. I dug out the electrical certificate and upon investigation it appears to be fraudulent. I cant find the company's phone number but I have found them on companies house with an address. I contacted stroma who haven't ever heard of the electrician or company. I then contacted my solicitor who are saying it is nothing to do with them but they will act on my behalf to contact the homeowner to try to get this resolved. At this point I should point out I have the home owners personal phone number but unsure whether to contact him myself. I have in the meantime got another electrician out to produce a report. This has confirmed that the first report is a load of rubbish. I.e the first report says the wiring is 3 years old, the new report says 40! There are 5 c2's on the report which means it should never have been signed off as satisfactory. My question is what do I do? Who is responsible? Stroma cant help as it is not a registered electrician. I have tried to call trading standards but it seems to be citizens advice phone lines who have told me to contact solicitors and solicitors have as good as said I need to shell out more money to pursue this. Is this a case for a small claims court?

 

[Murdoch]

Firstly don't panic 

Second is download this document and compare the C2's on your "new report" to what this document recommends - I say this because lots of C2's are coded incorrectly and should really be C3's

https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/media/2149/bpg4-1.pdf

Thirdly, for more clarity on the C2's can you list them on here for us to comment on? If you try to upload the EICR please redact the inspectors AND your information

Hope this helps

 

[boltonsparky]

I'm guessing because you've tried to contact Stroma that their name is the body on the certificate. You may already know but there are other bodies, NICEIC, ELECSA, NAPIT. The electrician may be registered with one of the other bodies. You don't need to be registered with a body to carry out EICRs. Unfortunately despite their advertising I don't think you'll get anywhere via the body even if they are registered with one, they are not good in this respect. 

It sounds like you/the previous owner may have fallen foul of the cheap EICR brigade in the first instance. It depends on the size of the property and the area you're in so is variable but a good quality, thorough EICR should take around 4 hours and cost you in the region of £150, this information is only any good to you in hindsight.

Was it the previous home owner that requested the report or yourself? If it was the previous owner it is likely they have got somebody in in good faith but with selling the house have used the cheapest they could find, because of getting a 'professional' in in good faith this may mean they're not liable.

Personally I wouldn't contact the previous owner until you have received proper legal advice. Once solicitors get involved it may be one of those that is cheaper to pay for the remedial works yourself and chalk it up to a bad experience.

 

[ProDave]

I assume you have just bought this house and it was the seller that produced this electrical test before completing the sale?

A vendor has a duty to answer all questions correctly and provide true information.

Now your solicitor needs to find out if the vendor was conned and genuinely thought they were employing a competent electrician to do the test, or if the vendor knew they were providing a work of fiction just to shut you up and complete the purchase.

One resolution might be to pay to have the faults put right and then pursue the vendor to pay for that, possibly through the small claims court, but seek the advice of your solicitor first. 

If the "electrician" that did the work has used the logo of a scheme that he is not actually a member of, then some of the schemes will take that very seriously and pursue him.  Often much more so than for doing poor work, so if that is the case definitely bring the matter to the attention of the scheme in question.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

I think your cheapest solution will be to just get your new electrician to put right any problems..

issue a new certificate then move on....

Your have a problem in that you personally have no direct contract with this "other" electrician yourself..

So you cannot take legal proceeding directly against him/her..

I've had customers who had builders in & the builders contractor did some dangerous electrical work..

The customer had no rights to make a claim against the electrician as their contract was with the builder..

So the customer had to use trading standards to take the builder to court & through the builder the electrician..

So I would bet you could only make a claim against the previous homeowner..  not the electrician..

BUT..   you end up in a similar trap as if buying a second hand car..

When buying second hand from a dealership, you could have a dealers warranty, e.g. maybe 12mnths.

but a second hand car from a private sale is basically "Sold As Seen"

Then if you choose not to have your own inspection done of the vehicle..  (or property) 

and just go on old documents provided by the seller, there is an element of risk.

An EICR and an MOT are technically only a snapshot test of the condition of a property/vehicle on the day it was tested..

You could have arranged your own electrical inspection of the property prior to purchase to double check the condition

But basically once you exchanged contracts etc.. you are pretty much accepting what you've got..

If any previous electrical work was Part-P notified there is a slim-chance it could be under one of the insurance backed warranty schemes..

(But I wouldn't hold my breath personally) 

Out of curiosity is the contractor listed on the competent person register?

https://www.electricalcompetentperson.co.uk 

You are going to have to spend money either way...

I would personally put your hard earned money into improving your property..

Not filling the bank accounts of solicitors..

As I don't think the time & effort will be worth the expense!

Unless of course the remedial costs are really excessive..

You probably need to get a formal quote, (or two), from other electricians to know realistically how much you are talking about..

Then a quick consultation with your legal advice to see if there is much hope or if the legal costs outweigh the balance.

:coffee

 

[Murdoch]

I'm not disagreeing with my esteem pals above but lets start by trying to understand if the C2's are actually C2's

Too many sparks haven't a clue when it comes to coding!

 

[ebrcknrdg]

Firstly thank you for all the replies. 

In response I purchased the house Sept 2020 and the previous owner provided the electrical cert at my request. I have suspicions that the previous owner or his brother (who he told me was a builder) have done the electrics themselves and therefore have paid a "friend" in the electrical field to write a report up knowing that the work they have done is not up to standard. I doubt the "electrician" even stepped foot in the property.  My question is how do I prove who did the works in the first place?

I then had my own report done last week which cost £150. This was his summary on the report

The installation is currently in an unsafe state, and does not satisfy the requirements of the IET Wiring Regulations. The wiring and associated accessories/equipment is
generally in a healthy condition, and the majority of the observed deviations are small scale items that have arisen from poor workmanship and non-standard installation
practices

I am awaiting the electrician to give me a quote to repair the following C2's

• DB : 5.5 Adequacy of cables for current-carrying capacity with regard for the type and nature of installation (Section 523) - Cable is underrated for
  
• design current - electric hob spur to kitchen sockets circuit (523)
  
• DB : 5.6 Coordination between conductors and overload protective devices (433.1; 533.2.1) - Conductors undersized for circuit over current protective
  
• device at flex final connection to built-in oven (433.1.1;533.2)
  
• DB : 5.17.2 No basic insulation of a conductor visible outside enclosure (526.8) - The PVC/PVC cable sheath is too short to reach the enclosure
  
• (526.8) Inner cores exposed in a PVC/T&E cable at lighting pendant connections in utility room (526.5)
  
• DB : 5.17.3 Connections of live conductors adequately enclosed (526.5) - Various socket outlet accessories are inadequately sealed to the wall
  
• leaving a slotted gap between the wall and the accessory, live parts accessible through this gap
  
• DB : 5.18 Condition of accessories including socket-outlets, switches and joint boxes (651.2(v)) - Dishwasher switch spacer between the switch
  
• accessory and the wall is broken
  

I checked the competent person register and this electrician isnt on there. In fact I have found the name of the person on the companies house register and he has 3 different companies to his name, some based in London. Its just not adding up. I cannot find a business website or any point of contact other than an address.

Unfortunately, being a single parent I dont have alot of disposable money and the money I did have was being put towards other expensive works, we are talking thousands. Its just not fair that I am now out of pocket for something I thought was sorted and safe. I guess some people just dont care!

 

[ProDave]

It sounds on the face of it those are justified and many of them simple to put right, the most serious one seems to be the inadequate supply feeding the hob.

So the "electrician" is not on any competent persons register.  Did he issue the certificate on a form that used the name or the logo of one of the competent persons schemes?  If so you MUST bring that to the scheme's attention if for no other reason than to try and stop him repeating this. Some of the schemes will take this very seriously.

 

[Geoff1946]

That reads to me like a fair and genuine assessment of a careless and shoddy job by someone lacking in both skills and any pride in their work. I hope that the other building aspects are better.

I like the fact that he has said the majority are small scale problems. Some may have been tempted to play up the shortcomings.  Hopefully the awaited quote may not be as bad as you fear.

I do think you have little choice but to pay up and have the work done, 

If it were me,  I would photograph the most visible flaws, such as the accessories not properly fitted to the wall. I would then document the whole saga, copying the two reports, and formally write to, (not phone), your local trading standards department.

That's in addition to sending it to any organisation cited on the first report.  

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Firstly thank you for all the replies. 

In response I purchased the house Sept 2020 and the previous owner provided the electrical cert at my request. I have suspicions that the previous owner or his brother (who he told me was a builder) have done the electrics themselves and therefore have paid a "friend" in the electrical field to write a report up knowing that the work they have done is not up to standard. I doubt the "electrician" even stepped foot in the property. 

My question is how do I prove who did the works in the first place?

I guess some people just dont care!

Sounds like a typical "Property Developer / Builder"...  Buy cheap property..  do a few cosmetics..  sell it at a profit!

Unfortunately it is going to be near impossible to prove who actually did the works..

As it was not your house, you didn't employ the contractors, nor did you see them at the property doing the work..

so it will be so easy for someone to deny they were involved.

You are quite right some people do not care!!

As ProDave said.. if you have a certificate with a business name and a trade association logo on it..

You do have evidence that the person was claiming to be a member of that trade body..

If they are not, (or were not at the date of the certificate), then you have factual, unambiguous evidence that trading standards can pursue,

and take action against the trader, (stuff like misleading advertising).

The cost of your own report seem reasonable..

and this is where another personal frustration is highlighted..

BS7671 wiring regulations do recommend an EICR every 10years or change of occupancy...

(this has been standard practice for a very long time, but it is not a statutory requirement)

So any competent estate agent, assisting with the purchase of a property,

should IMHO be recommended all prospective buyers invest this (£150-£200)

on their own EICR so they can confirm the condition of the electrical installation..

But.. many don't, as they themselves don't like the risk of losing out on commission for the sale/purchase of the property,

if the report comes back needing a lot of remedial work!

Personally I think homebuyers should be able to claim against estate agents for poor advice / guidance if a nasty can of worms comes to light shortly after purchase..

as they are also supposed to be competent...  

But in reality..  that is not a feasible option either, as I don't think you even need qualifications to call yourself an estate agent!!

:mellow:    

 

[Murdoch]

Firstly thank you for all the replies. 

In response I purchased the house Sept 2020 and the previous owner provided the electrical cert at my request. I have suspicions that the previous owner or his brother (who he told me was a builder) have done the electrics themselves and therefore have paid a "friend" in the electrical field to write a report up knowing that the work they have done is not up to standard. I doubt the "electrician" even stepped foot in the property.  My question is how do I prove who did the works in the first place?

I then had my own report done last week which cost £150. This was his summary on the report

I am awaiting the electrician to give me a quote to repair the following C2's

• DB : 5.5 Adequacy of cables for current-carrying capacity with regard for the type and nature of installation (Section 523) - Cable is underrated for
  
• design current - electric hob spur to kitchen sockets circuit (523)
  
• DB : 5.6 Coordination between conductors and overload protective devices (433.1; 533.2.1) - Conductors undersized for circuit over current protective
  
• device at flex final connection to built-in oven (433.1.1;533.2)
  
• DB : 5.17.2 No basic insulation of a conductor visible outside enclosure (526.8) - The PVC/PVC cable sheath is too short to reach the enclosure
  
• (526.8) Inner cores exposed in a PVC/T&E cable at lighting pendant connections in utility room (526.5)
  
• DB : 5.17.3 Connections of live conductors adequately enclosed (526.5) - Various socket outlet accessories are inadequately sealed to the wall
  
• leaving a slotted gap between the wall and the accessory, live parts accessible through this gap
  
• DB : 5.18 Condition of accessories including socket-outlets, switches and joint boxes (651.2(v)) - Dishwasher switch spacer between the switch
  
• accessory and the wall is broken
  

TBH it looks like the "2nd" EICR has been done properly and wait to see the cost of the remedials - which I suspect will be far cheaper than the cost of using a solicitor to try and claim it

The only 1 I might question is the DB 5.6 because the breaker is probably 32A and the cable is probably less - which for a fixed resistive load isn't really an issue as long as the final cable is suitable for the oven max load

 

[ProDave]

The only 1 I might question is the DB 5.6 because the breaker is probably 32A and the cable is probably less - which for a fixed resistive load isn't really an issue as long as the final cable is suitable for the oven max load

But easy enough to change for say a 16A MCB so small cost to get it right.

 

[Murdoch]

But easy enough to change for say a 16A MCB so small cost to get it right.

Quite agree

 

[binky]

solicitors charge per hour what I charge per day. Galling as it may be, just get the work done too rectify faults. 

 

[BorisJ]

Firstly thank you for all the replies.

In response I purchased the house Sept 2020 and the previous owner provided the electrical cert at my request.

In future remember it is normal for the purchaser to commission surveys, including an EICR if (s)he wishes to.

If a purchaser asked me as a seller to provide an electrical certificate that is what I would say.

As a buyer I would not trust a survey or EICR provided by the seller.

One of the reasons why the HIP of a few years ago was abandoned.

HIP = home information pack.

Locked to prevent being resurrected again