Garage Power

[greengardener]

Thanks guys for all input. with regards to me being an electrician its an old email address as i was training many moons ago but was able to make a living out of forex trading. But still have a genuine interest in electrics. With regards to people trying to find information I believe if people at least put in the effort to come up with a solution before asking it at least shows the thought process no matter how off so long as they stand to be corrected. How else do we learn? wait 20 years until we meet someone who shows us something that we may not be familiar with even though we may be absolutely professional at many other aspects of the trade. Some people are fortunate enough to have dealt with every aspect of the trade some have not but does that make the have nots unproffesional? what makes you professional is seeking the information with regards to the work to be carried out so that it is done correctly then you possess the knowledge in that area. Safe isolation and being able to test is paramount but making sure you understand the process of work to be carried out as well as risks is equally important. The process of creating a TT system with regards to an outbuilding I understand the process and what to do to improve ELI to a degree and using rcd if sufficient ELI cannot be achieved.

The exporting earth scenario was completely new to me but now it is not but will be looking more deeply out of interest at the technicalities that make it a problem rather than just creating a TT aspect for that part of an install. Like I say I think asking is better then just doing. I will be getting someone who is qualified to do the work and I will be helping but with my basic knowledge I want to know what they are doing will be the correct way. I know people who have qualified with NICEIC who were able to join when there were dangerous deviations observed but made to promise not to do again lol!!!

Many Thanks guys!!!

PS: I have a lot of respect and admiration for your level of knowledge in the trade that I know has taken many years to obtain and I know some questions may seem like "Oh here we go again" .

 

[greengardener]

Thanks guys for all input. with regards to me being an electrician its an old email address as i was training many moons ago but was able to make a living out of forex trading. But still have a genuine interest in electrics. With regards to people trying to find information I believe if people at least put in the effort to come up with a solution before asking it at least shows the thought process no matter how off so long as they stand to be corrected. How else do we learn? wait 20 years until we meet someone who shows us something that we may not be familiar with even though we may be absolutely professional at many other aspects of the trade. Some people are fortunate enough to have dealt with every aspect of the trade some have not but does that make the have nots unproffesional? what makes you professional is seeking the information with regards to the work to be carried out so that it is done correctly then you possess the knowledge in that area. Safe isolation and being able to test is paramount but making sure you understand the process of work to be carried out as well as risks is equally important. The process of creating a TT system with regards to an outbuilding I understand the process and what to do to improve ELI to a degree and using rcd if sufficient ELI cannot be achieved.

The exporting earth scenario was completely new to me but now it is not but will be looking more deeply out of interest at the technicalities that make it a problem rather than just creating a TT aspect for that part of an install. Like I say I think asking is better then just doing. I will be getting someone who is qualified to do the work and I will be helping but with my basic knowledge I want to know what they are doing will be the correct way. I know people who have qualified with NICEIC who were able to join when there were dangerous deviations observed but made to promise not to do again lol!!!

Many Thanks guys!!!

PS: I have a lot of respect and admiration for your level of knowledge in the trade that I know has taken many years to obtain and I know some questions may seem like "Oh here we go again" .

@sidewinder I agree its better to let people learn things themselves but if there was more definative information with regards to TNCS PME and exporting earths out there I would have stumbled on it but unfortunately did not. But thankfully to @steptoe I have been made aware and am now "learning" for my self the implications of such an act. 

 

[steptoe]

@steptoe how about suggesting a safe earthing system instead of just poking holes in this proposal????

Simply put,

Just telling the OP what to do will not help their understanding of why they are doing it,

I have a labourer that can wire a 'normal' 3 bed house. Use 'lighting' cable for lights, use 'socket' cable for sockets etc, can even do 2way switching, but he has no idea why , its just how It's done, do you think it a good idea just to let him wire houses with no supervision?

what's nasty about the above @Sidewinder ? Considering some of the arguments I've had with Steps.... :slap

:C

:wub:

:slap

 

[greengardener]

Simply put,

Just telling the OP what to do will not help their understanding of why they are doing it,

I have a labourer that can wire a 'normal' 3 bed house. Use 'lighting' cable for lights, use 'socket' cable for sockets etc, can even do 2way switching, but he has no idea why , its just how It's done, do you think it a good idea just to let him wire houses with no supervision?

:C

:wub:

:slap

Obviously understanding current carrying capacities of cables and breaker sizes in relation to power demand is essential but observing zones IP ratings and carrying out logical design as well as being mindfull of length of runs is a must!!

 

[apprentice87]

Hi All,

I cannot understand all the fuss that is made about "exporting" "PME"......

For a start off, if it were proper PME, you would not [ordinarily] be having different earth potentials due to the multiple spikes [I got a spike at my end, [so both ends of the service cable] if others have not, then that is their problem..].... and you would not much care about your bonding or earthing conductors being used as a neutral for half the street if they are sized correctly either..

Where is the difference between the DNO "exporting" their earth and their earth potential from their LV main to my house, and then me exporting it to my shed?? If i lean out of my front door whilst touching a radiator, am i liable to be killed?? Extension leads?? outside taps??? [yes, i do know, but does anyone else??]

All the OP has to do is to extend the equipotential zone to include his shed, which, as he is using 10mm cable anyway, [so long as he gets the three core stuff] will not be a problem, but what is he to bond??? He has already said there are no "earthy" bits in his shed..

Or, he could TT his shed, and have lots of RCCB's in series to give "redundant protection" if he so desires...

Finally, i do believe that you electricians SHOULD try to advise others.. I can see there is an argument that this is undercutting yourselves, but do you see gardening firms trying to get sales of lawnmowers to the general public banned???

john...

 

[steptoe]

Hi All,

I cannot understand all the fuss that is made about "exporting" "PME"......

For a start off, if it were proper PME, you would not [ordinarily] be having different earth potentials due to the multiple spikes [I got a spike at my end, [so both ends of the service cable] if others have not, then that is their problem..].... and you would not much care about your bonding or earthing conductors being used as a neutral for half the street if they are sized correctly either..

Where is the difference between the DNO "exporting" their earth and their earth potential from their LV main to my house, and then me exporting it to my shed?? If i lean out of my front door whilst touching a radiator, am i liable to be killed?? Extension leads?? outside taps??? [yes, i do know, but does anyone else??]

All the OP has to do is to extend the equipotential zone to include his shed, which, as he is using 10mm cable anyway, [so long as he gets the three core stuff] will not be a problem, but what is he to bond??? He has already said there are no "earthy" bits in his shed..

Or, he could TT his shed, and have lots of RCCB's in series to give "redundant protection" if he so desires...

Finally, i do believe that you electricians SHOULD try to advise others.. I can see there is an argument that this is undercutting yourselves, but do you see gardening firms trying to get sales of lawnmowers to the general public banned???

john...

Well, I don't think you do 'understand' at all, otherwise you would not be saying we should be advising DIYers on an easy way to potentially kill themselves, or others.

So you remember the horse that for electrocuted,!? and that was not that great a distance between suffering 'earth' potentials.

I don't care if you have 'proper' PME or not, this isn't a simple matter of banging a few rods in, this is the difference between potential manslaughter or not. (pun intended)

Either have something like this done by someone that understands it properly, or take the chance, and, God forbid, it only yourself you kill and not some innocent bystander or child.

Hope you guys sleep easy at night knowing you openly promote dangerous practice,

Would you all be saying the same about gas,? 

 

[apprentice87]

Well, I don't think you do 'understand' at all, otherwise you would not be saying we should be advising DIYers on an easy way to potentially kill themselves, or others.

So you remember the horse that for electrocuted,!? and that was not that great a distance between suffering 'earth' potentials.

I don't care if you have 'proper' PME or not, this isn't a simple matter of banging a few rods in, this is the difference between potential manslaughter or not. (pun intended)

Either have something like this done by someone that understands it properly, or take the chance, and, God forbid, it only yourself you kill and not some innocent bystander or child.

Hope you guys sleep easy at night knowing you openly promote dangerous practice,

Would you all be saying the same about gas,?

Fair play Steps, you are correct in what you say, but people will "have a go" whether they have advice from forum members or not. This being the case, surely it is better that they "have a go" with at least a bit of an idea rather than none??

john..

 

[steptoe]

Yep,

And their defence in court,

John on the internet told me it would be OK,

Do you want to be an accessory in a manslaughter case,?

Like it or not, advice is advice, face to face, or behind a keyboard, 

As is often said on here, its one thing advising someone how to change a fancy light, or a new double socket, 

would you advocate someone change their own consumer unit or gas boiler,?

Taking electricity outside the 'normal' EZ is a lot different to adding an extra socket in the box room. 

IMHO

 

[Andy™]

yep, some things are DIYable with a little help / instruction. some things are not. unless he already has some knowledge / experience then i would suggest this is not

 

[apprentice87]

Yep,

And their defence in court,

John on the internet told me it would be OK,

Do you want to be an accessory in a manslaughter case,?

Like it or not, advice is advice, face to face, or behind a keyboard, 

As is often said on here, its one thing advising someone how to change a fancy light, or a new double socket, 

would you advocate someone change their own consumer unit or gas boiler,?

Taking electricity outside the 'normal' EZ is a lot different to adding an extra socket in the box room. 

IMHO

Therein lies a very big problem.... and once again you are correct. If someone is given advice by a "professional" then they are entitled to rely on that advice... I suppose a court would draw a distinction though between someone going to a firm of electrical engineers and being given advice there though, and the advice they got off an internet forum....

I suppose i should point out to the OP not to rely on anything i say as i am NOT an electrician but a welder. [For the benefit of the OP, welders are like the 5WW version of a blacksmith, NOT to be relied on!!]

john..

 

[steptoe]

You're as good as a blacksmith in my view John,

 

[Andy™]

and better than many 'electricians'

 

[Sidewinder]

what's nasty about the above @Sidewinder ? Considering some of the arguments I've had with Steps.... :slap

Nothing nasty about the above Binky, I just wanted to warn everyone, that we don't want this deteriorating into a slanging match that's all.

It was a general comment, that ended up appearing to be aimed at you, which was not the intention, sorry.

 

[Sidewinder]

One other thing, is that it is not illegal to undertake DIY gas work, there is nothing in the GSUR that requires GasSafe registration for DIY, it is only required when there is money changing hands, now that applies to rental properties, and anywhere that monetary transactions occur.

In ones own home, DIY gas work on your own gas installation, boiler etc. is legal.

I don't like it, but it's not illegal, just the same way it is not illegal to undertake ones own electrical work in ones own property.

 

[Kurt]

True, but you still need to be competent, generally this means having the same training and relevant test equipment to correctly carry out the work. In reality, I am GSR for commercial installations but I wont service my own boiler as I have not had the training that my domestic engineers have had. So although it is correct that its not automatically illegal to work on your own boiler, I think you will find that it is very very very unlikely a DIYer would have the competence, in the eyes of the law, to do so.

I work on boilers and heaters well over 200KW but wont service my own little 30KW boiler.... FWIW

 

[steptoe]

One other thing, is that it is not illegal to undertake DIY gas work, there is nothing in the GSUR that requires GasSafe registration for DIY, it is only required when there is money changing hands, now that applies to rental properties, and anywhere that monetary transactions occur.

In ones own home, DIY gas work on your own gas installation, boiler etc. is legal.

I don't like it, but it's not illegal, just the same way it is not illegal to undertake ones own electrical work in ones own property.

Entirely true,

But, would anyone advocate a diyer changing a gas boiler,?

And the small fact of competence arises yet again,

Just how does one prove competence without having the relevant qualifications AND experience ?

 

[Kurt]

exactly my point, you would need the equivalent of a current domestic ticket and EGA in calibration, it narrows the odds somewhat... lol

 

[apprentice87]

You're as good as a blacksmith in my view John,

Awwww, thank you!!

and better than many 'electricians'

Awww.. You are all too kind!!!

 

[greengardener]

Entirely true,

But, would anyone advocate a diyer changing a gas boiler,?

And the small fact of competence arises yet again,

Just how does one prove competence without having the relevant qualifications AND experience ?

Are you affectively saying if you have changed many lights switches 1/2 way multiple intermediates, installed consumer units, understand problems that arise from ccu change i.e (N-E fault/Borrowed N), understand current carrying capacities for cables including voltdrop, breaker selection, test single/3 phase i.e (ZS,PFC etc) max disonnection times, Max ZS per breaker type, fault find, Main bonding/Supp bonding, install TT system, Class1/2 fittings. Then you are still not "worthy" to enquire about something you may not be familiar with?. And you would have to have done every single thing electrical to be "worthy to ask" a question that you would already know the answer too  :facepalm: .  Ps I was working in the trade for 6 years but never had to deal with a external subboard  never obtained NVQ but got to 2391 stopped 6 years ago hence why Ill get someone to do the work who through their tickets is allegedly competant but still want to make sure it is done correctly!

cheers!!!

 

[greengardener]

yep, some things are DIYable with a little help / instruction. some things are not. unless he already has some knowledge / experience then i would suggest this is not

What is so technical about being advised to install a TT system? Aside from understanding what you are trying to achieve and interpretating the results you get.

If my question was "HOW TO" there in lies the problem !!