Hourly rate discussions following Help needed in trying to diagnose a fault Thread

[Risteard]

Even at a standard 1 hour call out charge I guess this would only be £30 +/- £5.

Doc H. 

I live in a deprived area and charge more than that for a call-out.

****  EDITED AND SPLIT FROM ANOTHER THREAD ****

In an attempt to keep the other thread on topic, numerous posts from this thread;



have now been spilt onto a separate topic, as it appears to be getting away from the OPs problem of a faulty garage supply cable.

Doc H 

 

[Sidewinder]

I live in a deprived area and charge more than that for a call-out.

Quite, same day call out for me would be circa £110 but that does include the minimum on site charge of 1hr, like it or not.

 

[Murdoch]

Even at a standard 1 hour call out charge I guess this would only be £30 +/- £5. and would leave you much wiser about the condition of the underground supply.

Not sure where you live Doc Hudson ............... but you don't get much for £30 on my patch .......................... maybe you should avoid setting expectation below what is reasonable, and rates do vary tremendously across the UK

 

[Doc Hudson]

Not sure where you live Doc Hudson ............... but you don't get much for £30 on my patch .......................... maybe you should avoid setting expectation below what is reasonable, and rates do vary tremendously across the UK

Indeed they do and what is reasonable for one may not be reasonable for others. However from the limited detail given by the OP, I am relatively confident I could verify the integrity of this underground garage supply cable without the need for any prior site visit, or any time collecting materials, or any time writing quotes/estimates for the work. And I doubt I would be on site much longer than 30mins to just test the cable. I appreciate some customers involve long durations of travel time, however there are also just as many that are local calls, or visits that can be made whilst passing to or from other jobs. It would not be an urgent out of hours call-out, just a drop-in visit at the next most mutually convenient time.

Very frequently on the forum we get members telling DIY posters who are trying to fix an electrical problem, they should not touch it themselves and they should call in professionals.  Most of the time they are trying it themselves as they think that electricians charge too much. Unless the OP is in the middle of nowhere, or in the middle of a major city with travel and parking restrictions then I would guess there are at least one or two relatively local competent electricians who are able to visit. Not sure how much you would be charging to just test the cable, (not fix any problem found), as a call-in whist passing to from other jobs? But from what you post suggests, it may be one of the reasons DIY'ers do keep trying it themselves and don't call in professional help. Possibly you should avoid reinforcing the expectation to customers at all electricians visits will be prohibitively expensive.

Doc H.

 

[Doc Hudson]

Quite, same day call out for me would be circa £110 but that does include the minimum on site charge of 1hr, like it or not.

However as this OP appears to be a domestic dwelling to garage supply issue, not a industrial/commercial machine breakdown, then I very much doubt you would even be looking to do the work. To some degree that is like comparing hourly rates for fork-lift truck maintenance to replace the batteries, when what you want is the labour costs to have a battery replaced in Ford Fiesta. You are not comparing an equivalent product.  

Doc H.

 

[Murdoch]

Indeed they do and what is reasonable for one may not be reasonable for others. However from the limited detail given by the OP, I am relatively confident I could verify the integrity of this underground garage supply cable without the need for any prior site visit, or any time collecting materials, or any time writing quotes/estimates for the work. And I doubt I would be on site much longer than 30mins to just test the cable. I appreciate some customers involve long durations of travel time, however there are also just as many that are local calls, or visits that can be made whilst passing to or from other jobs. It would not be an urgent out of hours call-out, just a drop-in visit at the next most mutually convenient time.

Very frequently on the forum we get members telling DIY posters who are trying to fix an electrical problem, they should not touch it themselves and they should call in professionals.  Most of the time they are trying it themselves as they think that electricians charge too much. Unless the OP is in the middle of nowhere, or in the middle of a major city with travel and parking restrictions then I would guess there are at least one or two relatively local competent electricians who are able to visit. Not sure how much you would be charging to just test the cable, (not fix any problem found), as a call-in whist passing to from other jobs? But from what you post suggests, it may be one of the reasons DIY'ers do keep trying it themselves and don't call in professional help. Possibly you should avoid reinforcing the expectation to customers at all electricians visits will be prohibitively expensive.

Doc H.

So you've not answered my point ...............................and a DIYer couldn't test this cable without the necessary test kit.

My advice to the OP would, if the tripping returns, organise somebody to come and test said circuit ........... thus avoiding the need for an out of hours or weekend call out and agree the fee before they come ................. and as its testing make sure part of the agreement is something documenting the test results.

I've been using the same 1st hour minimum charge for 8 years and consistently get told "its more than reasonable" - but its more than your indicated charge.

Too many variables - and buy setting an expectation of £30 + / - £5 is not helping a skilled trade.............. and if you don't have a big mortgage and / or kids may be you can do "charity" work 

 

[Doc Hudson]

So you've not answered my point ...............................and a DIYer couldn't test this cable without the necessary test kit.

My advice to the OP would, if the tripping returns, organise somebody to come and test said circuit ........... thus avoiding the need for an out of hours or weekend call out and agree the fee before they come ................. and as its testing make sure part of the agreement is something documenting the test results.

I've been using the same 1st hour minimum charge for 8 years and consistently get told "its more than reasonable" - but its more than your indicated charge.

Too many variables - and buy setting an expectation of £30 + / - £5 is not helping a skilled trade.............. and if you don't have a big mortgage and / or kids may be you can do "charity" work 

I have already suggested that the OP calls someone to test the cable correctly and never suggested that a DIY could verify its integrity without knowledge of and access to correct test equipment.  And I am well aware of reasonable costs, As I have been charging them for more than double your 8 years, whist still covering all of the normal business and household expenses (mortgage & children). Electrical work is a skilled trade, but there are some that like to over-skill certain less skilled aspects of the work. To IR test and continuity test all legs of a single underground cable is not rocket science and it would not take a competent person very long.

Consider the costs charged for an MOT test on a car, skilled work, specialist test equipment, business overheads etc. If an electrician cannot test a single bit of cable for a similar amount, is it any wonder that a certain sector of the public think electricians are there to rip them off.

Doc H.

 

[Murdoch]

 Electrical work is a skilled trade, but there are some that like to over-skill certain less skilled aspects of the work. To IR test and continuity test all legs of a single underground cable is not rocket science and it would not take a competent person very long.

Consider the costs charged for an MOT test on a car, skilled work, specialist test equipment, business overheads etc. If an electrician cannot test a single bit of cable for a similar amount, is it any wonder that a certain sector of the public think electricians are there to rip them off.

Doc H.

Again you fail to address my points ................. its not just about the time on site doing the test .......... you have to get there, prepare , test, pack up and travel again ......

Your approach doesn't help - charging more than £35 for an hour sounds a lot .............. but its NOT a rip off - its not just about the time on site, you are providing expertise, tools, etc...... and if you are SE its not what you get in your pocket............

I will continue with my minimum charge of £50 for the first hour ........................ if you think its a rip off, then you are doing nothing more than contributing to the race to the bottom

 

[Risteard]

I'm sorry but no matter how quick and easy the job and nearby I don't think £30 is a reasonable expectation for a call-out. It simply wouldn't be profitable. 

Again you fail to address my points ................. its not just about the time on site doing the test .......... you have to get there, prepare , test, pack up and travel again ......

Your approach doesn't help - charging more than £35 for an hour sounds a lot .............. but its NOT a rip off - its not just about the time on site, you are providing expertise, tools, etc...... and if you are SE its not what you get in your pocket............

I will continue with my minimum charge of £50 for the first hour ........................ if you think its a rip off, then you are doing nothing more than contributing to the race to the bottom

I'm all out of scoobs for the day but I concur with your post. 

 

[Murdoch]

I'm sorry but no matter how quick and easy the job and nearby I don't think £30 is a reasonable expectation for a call-out. It simply wouldn't be profitable. 

I'm all out of scoobs for the day but I concur with your post. 

I've never understood the limitation on scoobs.

 

[MDJ]

it is 2018, the race to the bottom should have passed by now, 50 quid plus vat for the 1st hour and 35-40 per hour plus vat after that at least, a MFT costs 800 quid these days, well for a good one, lets not forget liability insurance, 6-7 k a year running a van and the stress of working for the IR. Lets also not forget a lot of guys spend at least 5 years training, and my vast experience working in this industry has taught me one thing, there are not many good sparks about today due to short courses with lack of hands on training.

 

[Murdoch]

it is 2018, the race to the bottom should have passed by now, 50 quid plus vat for the 1st hour and 35-40 per hour plus vat after that at least, a MFT costs 800 quid these days, well for a good one, lets not forget liability insurance, 6-7 k a year running a van and the stress of working for the IR. Lets also not forget a lot of guys spend at least 5 years training, and my vast experience working in this industry has taught me one thing, there are not many good sparks about today due to short courses with lack of hands on training.

I can't scoob you, as I've run out, but "hit, nail and head" spring to mind.

I'm operating below the VAT threshold so my £50 is £50

And of course this year we will all have the costs of "upskilling" to the 18th Edition .............................. and thats not cheap, especially when you are SE and have to use unpaid time to go and do courses and exams

 

[Risteard]

Amen brothers.

 

[Sidewinder]

This is the issue that a lot of people miss, TBH, I wouldn't leave the house to do a job for £30, it's simply not worth my while, I'd be better off working on developing the business through other means.

Unless the job is literally next door, I don't see how a legitimate self-employed electrician could go anywhere and do an investigative job for around an hour and return home for £25-35.

It's just not realistic, there could easily be £5 worth of diesel.

 

[Sidewinder]

However as this OP appears to be a domestic dwelling to garage supply issue, not a industrial/commercial machine breakdown, then I very much doubt you would even be looking to do the work. To some degree that is like comparing hourly rates for fork-lift truck maintenance to replace the batteries, when what you want is the labour costs to have a battery replaced in Ford Fiesta. You are not comparing an equivalent product.  

Doc H.

No I wouldn't be looking for the work, but if they were calling me that is what I would be quoting them, like it or not, I'm not a charity, and I have overheads, and if you actually declare what you do to your insurance company, which if you don't especially these days, then they will consider you uninsured, then insurance is not cheap, so OK, my overheads are higher, I need additional test kit, same as the guys on here doing comms or gates need additional test kit over and above that which I have.

I tried a race to the bottom in the past, it doesn't work, a company, must, make a profit, if it doesn't then it won't last long.

For goodness sakes, the guys who were on the same grade I was where I used to work with the last time I was employed are now on around £23/hr PAYE, plus a company car, tools, training etc. they get their 25 days holiday + statutory, sick pay etc.

If you are charging down that low you are working for wages, nothing more, and that is not sustainable long term, unless you have some other source of income.

 

[Doc Hudson]

This is the issue that a lot of people miss, TBH, I wouldn't leave the house to do a job for £30, it's simply not worth my while, I'd be better off working on developing the business through other means.

Unless the job is literally next door, I don't see how a legitimate self-employed electrician could go anywhere and do an investigative job for around an hour and return home for £25-35.

It's just not realistic, there could easily be £5 worth of diesel.

The above points are all very true, but there are also occasions where you can be travelling past the front door of one potential customer whilst visiting another. If you are already on your way past, to attend another job, the fuel issue is a red herring in the equation. It all dependent upon how local your normal client base is? Whilst there are those who travel 100's of miles between commercial, jobs others may only have a 10mile round trip between domestic clients as most homeowners pick a local electrician. I would suggest is not economically viable to do many long journeys to the majority of domestic customers! 

Doc H. 

 

[Murdoch]

Many years ago I tried doing work for less and concluded that it simply wasn't worth it. .......................

£50 less tax and NI = £31.00

Less direct overheads of insurances etc

Less indirect overheads of talking on phone, going to site, doing invoice, sending invoice ....

Then there is the fact that if you are Self Employed, you don't get paid for every hour you work .................. nor do you get paid for sick days, bank holidays, normal holidays, pensions, etc etc

Not around here!

The above points are all very true, but there are also occasions where you can be travelling past the front door of one potential customer whilst visiting another. If you are already on your way past, to attend another job, the fuel issue is a red herring in the equation. It all dependent upon how local your normal client base is? Whilst there are those who travel 100's of miles between commercial, jobs others may only have a 10mile round trip between domestic clients as most homeowners pick a local electrician. I would suggest is not economically viable to do many long journeys to the majority of domestic customers! 

Doc H. 

You're not going to be surprised to hear I disagree with you 100%

I often do the small jobs on the way home, to suit me, I don't discount my time, nor my value!

Then there are jobs where parking is an issue ........................ 

Are you actually working as a spark? Self Employed? or Employed?

 

[Risteard]

I often do the small jobs on the way home, to suit me, I don't discount my time, nor my value!

Indeed. If I happen to be passing/near a job then I will try to catch them together to benefit me. I certainly wouldn't pass the benefit on to the client.

 

[Murdoch]

Indeed. If I happen to be passing/near a job then I will try to catch them together to benefit me. I certainly wouldn't pass the benefit on to the client.

Have another scoob!

I do sometimes do jobs for the elderly, like changing lamp bulbs for free ......................... but that's a completely different topic

 

[Risteard]

Have another scoob!

I do sometimes do jobs for the elderly, like changing lamp bulbs for free ......................... but that's a completely different topic

Thanks. Scoobs to you too!

I'm sure most of us have done charitable work like that, but certainly we are aware that it isn't a tenable way to operate a business so they have to be pretty occasional. We might also do love jobs for family and close friends, but again this has to be limited.