Hourly rate discussions following Help needed in trying to diagnose a fault Thread

[Doc Hudson]

What several of you seem to be missing is that the point I was attempting to make, (and by the looks of it failing), is to look at it from the customers perspective e.g someone may have two purchases to make; one to verify some safety critical aspects of his electrical installation the other safety critical aspects of his car. 

One involves an IR tester & continuity tester (may be the same meter) and few screwdrivers, (possibly a pair of pliers?) that can be carried easily in a Tesco carried bag, (tools unloaded!) involves testing a single 3 core cable and would take a competent person very little time or effort, (well under one hour unless you are grossly incompetent).  The other involves far more testing equipment that cannot be carried in your hand and takes longer. 

All that Mr Joe Public sees is a more complex longer task that is cheaper than what the electrician charged him for quite probably less than half hours work.  At the end of the day the customers will just look even more for cheaper solutions to their problems if electricians are continually trying to charge their top rate for a very basic job.

I take it all of you objecting genuinely consider an IR and continuity test on a single cable to be a highly critical complex task? If so I think your race to the bottom has already bottomed out when it comes to competence and ability to carry out electrical work.

I have already addressed the traveling to and from the customer aspect earlier, where jobs such as the one this related to, can be scheduled into you diary when passing that way anyway to other jobs. So no additional fuel or travel times involved. However for those of you who never pass down the same road twice during the course of the average fortnight, I appreciate travel cost would be incurred, but in that case I doubt I would offer to do that job anyway. no doubt there would be some other electrician relatively local who could fit it in.      

Doc H.   

 

[Doc Hudson]

Plenty of hero's have raced to the bottom, and the winners always end up losing out, de skilling the job is not the answer by charging cowboys rates, if your a professional time served Electrician and good at your job you will always get work by word of mouth, I kind of get your point, but you will never win the argument, quite simply with the greatest respect to you, cheap invoices do not pay bills in this industry.

Respect back to you to. (side note: no forum has every fallen due to some good healthy debate!). Deskilling and hourly charges are two different concepts. A persons past training, qualifications, competence or overall skill-set does not alter if they have variable hourly rates. If I charge £35/hr for one job or £70/hr for another, bares no relevance to how well I treat my customers or the skills I use to undertake my work. Cheap invoices indeed do not pay bills (in any business), but just because another qualified competent person can cover their overheads, make a reasonable living at a charge that is less than some others charge, (to IR test a single cable), doesn't mean their perspective of reasonable costs is wrong. At the end of the day a fundamental rule of business always has been and still is that "The Customer is King".  The very reason many DIY'ers ask on here in the first place is that they have the perception that electricians are expensive and want to sort out a cheap solution. Like it or not the UK economy is changing, lots of domestic homeowners have less spare cash, and I have no doubt this will escalate as and when interest rates start to rise again, (I can still remember the joys of 14%+ interest rates!), Customers will shop around you can be sure of that. The county is littered with the remains of industries and retailers that have failed to meet their customers expectations, which most of the time is they have found the similar goods or services cheaper elsewhere. Do you honestly think the electrical industry is immune to this? 

Doc H. 

 

[binky]

OK, cheap MoTs usually are offered by garages that always find £600 of faults - bitter experience. 

Employees, if sent out from their usual place of work will expect to be paid for evry minute of their time to and from their place of work as well as performing the task in hand., why shouldn't we expect the same? Most of my customers are employed, and wouldn't bat an eyelid at writing the hours on thier time sheets.

I've always tried to offer reasonable value for money, I have built a good customer base, but more importantly I've always been dead straight with my customers and hence have buit a good reputation for honesty and integrity. Net result is more work than I can handle as honest trades seem to be in short supply. Based on this I have started charging higher rates, partly to reduce demand, but mostly becuase I can offer a better sevice based on less work but more time for the custoemrs to explain issues and offer solutions. 

Somewhere between all the above, is a middle ground, if I can pop in on my way home from whatever other job I'm doing that day, it's extra money as Doc H points out - I may charge less or something like £20 cash. If I have to go out of my way to get to customer, then It's a different matter, BUT I will tell customers my rate before I turn up. I do struggle with £50 for an hour, of simple work but I also fail to make more money than stacking shelves at Tescos some years, and the work is simple becuase I am competent, so I should be charging that sort of rate to reflect my skills and experinece.

 

[Murdoch]

No I do not accept it was misleading,

Doc H. 

So a moderator thinks its HIS place to set expectation across the WHOLE of the UK for how much Joe Public should expect to pay for electrical work .................... in 1 word - NO

As I previously stated, this entire confusion would have been avoided if said MODERATOR, had the decency to not present his views as FACT and deliver some information in a more sensible manner ...................................

I would have thought he would have known better.

And as my quote above shows he's in denial, so for the benefit of anyone reading this thread, please be aware that across the UK trades persons rates vary tremendously ............... nobody sets the rates and my advice to anyone seeking work is to get prices / quotes before proceeding.

 

[ProDave]

I don't see this as a moderation issue. I am sure Doc posted his comments being his belief as an electrician, not a heavy handed "I am a moderator so there" post

 

[Murdoch]

I've made my point ..... No more to say, except moderators should consider their actions and comments further.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

So a moderator thinks its HIS place to set expectation across the WHOLE of the UK for how much Joe Public should expect to pay for electrical work .................... in 1 word - NO

As I previously stated, this entire confusion would have been avoided if said MODERATOR, had the decency to not present his views as FACT and deliver some information in a more sensible manner ...................................

I would have thought he would have known better.

And as my quote above shows he's in denial, so for the benefit of anyone reading this thread, please be aware that across the UK trades persons rates vary tremendously ............... nobody sets the rates and my advice to anyone seeking work is to get prices / quotes before proceeding.

OK.....   Maybe I have skip-read a bit of this.... opcorn

BUT...  I just don't think a fat lot of Joe Public around the UK would be looking on here to find the average rate for electricians around the UK...

My £10 bet would be they would google something like "Hourly rates for electricians" and end up at a site more like....

http://www.whatprice.co.uk/prices/electrician/hourly-rate.html#axzz590y6hy2p

But then they get some numbers that are a few years out of date!!  :shakehead

Or see http://www.whatprice.co.uk/prices/electrician/hourly-rate.html#axzz590y6hy2p   

For some more up to date numbers...

Or a whole screen full of other google search results...

https://www.tradeskills4u.co.uk/posts/average-day-rate-electrician

http://www.homeadviceguide.com/guide-electrician-prices-uk/

https://www.electriciancourses4u.co.uk/useful-resources/electrician-salary/

then just keep scrolling! :^O

Most punters who come on here who are DIY are asking how to fix something...

Not how much should I be paying per hour??

Did someone actually say that there is a fixed UK rate?   :C

 

[ProDave]

Or see http://www.whatprice.co.uk/prices/electrician/hourly-rate.html#axzz590y6hy2p   

For some more up to date numbers...

I like the £2900 per hour in Gloucestershire in 2014. Guess where I want to move to now. 1 hour per month would do me nicely.,

 

[Marvo]

A decent, registered and licensed domestic electrician where I am charges in the region of 600 bucks per hour which is about 36 quid converting directly. They may also charge travel depending on the distance. If you take into account the cost of living using the Big Mac index you guys are cheap as chips fries.

 

[Sidewinder]

I've made my point ..... No more to say, except moderators should consider their actions and comments further.

Murdoch,

I agree with most of what you have posted, the only thing is I think the moderator thing is a bit overplayed, I see where you are coming from.

However, the Mods here are no more knowledgeable and influential in the industry than any other member, they are merely Mods to control the forums.

In my opinion, domestic or not to attend a site to do anything for a charge in the region of that suggested is ridiculous.

Also, the other arguments with regard to persons having less money to spend, well, yes they will because they are all being paid less, and the cost of living is going up, that is part of what the race to the bottom is.

Margins are squeezed ever tighter, the massive players in the market don't and won't suffer, it is the small and medium sized guys that loose out.

Bezos has just overtaken Gates, Maplin are gone, New Look are laying off, Toys R Us are gone, Tesco cutting back, Sainsbury's cutting back, Morrisons, a lot of this is down to cut backs in spend, a lot is to do with people simply not shopping, they are buying online.

Just look at the sites where there are reverse auctions for work FFS who wins there, certainly not the consumer, how can they, short term yes, but something has to give, and it is, product quality has dropped because people won't pay for quality, but they still want the same quality to last just as long.

Training has been dumbed down so that the market is flooded with part qualified people so that the competition drives prices down, no-one wins, because everyone suffers, the only ones to win are the large corporates.

They won't cut their profit margins, they will shed people and assets to keep their money coming in.

Just look at the directors of Carillion if you don't believe that, their pension fund is fine, screw everyone else mate we're OK.

That is what is wrong with the UK, there is a cancer of greed amongst the large corporates, and the Government don't care about the people at large, no Government does, no matter what colour rosette they wear.

Individual MP's may care, enough to persuade you to vote for them.

Once they are there, they all eat out of the same trough of our money.

Don't believe me?  Think about this.

A comment I made to a friend who works for a train operator up in the South East.

I am amazed that in this day and age, people are left on a train marooned for 8+ hours overnight without heating and sanitation, or is it all Radishes?  Surely in that time they could have escorted them off the track and into a bus or something?  I don't know much about railways really, but that just seems ridiculous?

To which he agreed and cited that there was a massive failure across the network affecting loads of routes due to lack of maintenance of track equipment due to costs (probably), and the fact that the whole industry is afraid of criticising the Government.

To which I replied:

TBH mate, I think it goes further than that.  I think it shows how much contempt, lack of compassion, and how little the general public actually mean to these large corporates and the Government.  The public are just an inconvenience there to fund their drug and alcohol fuelled binges, pay for their holiday homes, bonuses, and lavish lifestyle, nothing else.

 

[Sharpend]

Whilst that may be the reality, is it the truth?

i suspect that there are many within the corporate business that live the same as you and I, the failure and the greatest failure in this so called democratic country of ours and possibly the entire world, is that the many are ruled, led by the few. WhIch is exactly what we are programmed to accept as the norm from childhood and just because it's the norm doesn't make it right. I just wonder when the many will take hold of their lives and actually take back the control, remember this, they only have the control because they control the money. What if the masses stopped accepting money, sounds ridiculous, but reality is if the people come together then you'd realise we don't need money.. let's face it they are already seeking alternatives to money as we know it, is that because they need to stir it up to stop us taking control?. without the control of the money they are no more than us.

 

[Blue Duck]

I'm to tired to write a sensible reply.

I'll just leave this here instead.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/28/small-town-wolfhagen-community-revolution-german-europe-energy-contract

FWIW

Don't like what the paper stands for or the arogant journalist who likes big words but it's a good story and gives me hope for my kids future.

Good night.

 

[steptoe]

I havent replied so far,

but,

trying to compete with the 30£/hr guys made my business go under,

its a ridiculous sum to even contemplate for an experienced tradesman to turn up for

and I live in a 'cheap' -ish area in the NW

 

[Sharpend]

Sorry to hear that Steps, trust things are better for you now? 

 

[binky]

I havent replied so far,

but,

trying to compete with the 30£/hr guys made my business go under,

its a ridiculous sum to even contemplate for an experienced tradesman to turn up for

and I live in a 'cheap' -ish area in the NW

it took me  along time not to compete for the crumbs off the table. I used to be quite proud of being relatively cheap and good at what I was doing until I realised I was working for peanuts, knackered and just not making enough money. I am fortunate now in that the hard work has built me  a fairly large customer base,  repeat customers will wait for me to be available, and will pay more because they trust me, and want me to do their work. Took quite a while to get to that level from a standing start, but it is better to be more available at a higher price, than working all hours on the cheap.