How far do you have to go?

[davidl]

Hi Everyone,

I've been in the building industry for 40+ years doing general small works mainly domestic hardly any commercial properties. I passed the 17th edition City & Guilds last June and any notifiable works go through building control.

I do a lot of work for small private landlords and some are using the current low house prices to buy more properties, but I am a bit confused as to how far one has to go with electrical updating.

If you can bear with me a bit longer I will explain a recent situation.

I had to do a house refurb and the instructions were to add a few sockets to the ring where necessary, but when I saw the consumer unit, with no cover and rewirable fuses, no water main or gas bonded and all the lighting circuits with no cpc I wondered just how far, bearing in mind the property will be rented out, one needs to go to bring, or not, the property up to date.

Any clarification would be much appreciated.

David

 

[Doc Hudson]

Hello Davidl, I am sure you will have some proper answers shortly, but I will just say welcome to the forum.

Doc H.

 

[Andy™]

All work you complete must be to standard. that includes upgrading main earthing if req'd

for missing board cover and others, you should make a note on EIC or MWC under 'comments on existing installation' saying that it needs urgent attention, and maybe put it in writing to owner, or even better, change it (or find a suitable cover)

for lighting circuits with no CPC - this can be left providing everything is class II. or possibly run a seperate earth to class I fittings. and an RCD would help

 

[NozSpark]

Hi David

What you are connecting to has to be safe for the extra load you are putting on it...

In this case you need to change the CU (as it's missing it's cover)

Install main bonding to your services and upgrade the main earth.

You do not have to rewire the lighting circuit, but it is advisable to do so; although you must make sure that there are no class 1 fittings or switches, that the circuit is RCD protected (which it will be if you are changing the CU) and you must also put a label on the CU stating that the lighting circuit has no CPC (look in regs for the label)..

Hope that helps

 

[NozSpark]

Andy,,

A CU with no cover is a code 1 on a PIR and as such should be isolated

 

[Andy™]

Andy,,A CU with no cover is a code 1 on a PIR and as such should be isolated

but its always worked so it must be OK!

im sure that would stand up well in court when someone is killed though....

 

[NozSpark]

I had it today (and yesterday) with that fused isolator (other post)

I told him that it should be switched back on as it's dangerous, he said if you don't want to I will, where's the switch??

I'm 100% certain that I'll find it on in the morning

 

[Apache]

Hello and welcome

 

[batty]

Hello David welcome to the forum.

Batty

 

[Robojin]

I had it today (and yesterday) with that fused isolator (other post)I told him that it should be switched back on as it's dangerous, he said if you don't want to I will, where's the switch??

I'm 100% certain that I'll find it on in the morning

Had an interesting debate on this in collage (as not every one could agree), the consensus was that the client/landlord could potentially take you to court "Criminal Damage" for disabling their leccy supply, the conclusion was to advise the client in writing of a CODE1, if they asked for the supply to be restored do so then walk away, a moral dilemma for some

 

[NozSpark]

I couldn't see how it would be "Criminal damage", unless you made it so that they couldn't switch it back on!

I'd just switch the isolator and give them a "Danger notice"!!

 

[green-hornet]

Had an interesting debate on this in collage (as not every one could agree), the consensus was that the client/landlord could potentially take you to court "Criminal Damage" for disabling their leccy supply, the conclusion was to advise the client in writing of a CODE1, if they asked for the supply to be restored do so then walk away, a moral dilemma for some

You have a legal and moral duty to isolate what you would consider a danger.

In the past I have called the utilities to come and do an immediate disconnection on the grounds of safety.

After remedial works the property was reconnected.

The supply company sent a fraud agent who with latex gloves on, took possesion of the meter and labelled it as evidence for a prosecution against the landlord. I suppose he will never use a registered electrician again!

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Hi Everyone,I've been in the building industry for 40+ years doing general small works mainly domestic hardly any commercial properties. I passed the 17th edition City & Guilds last June and any notifiable works go through building control.

I do a lot of work for small private landlords and some are using the current low house prices to buy more properties, but I am a bit confused as to how far one has to go with electrical updating.

If you can bear with me a bit longer I will explain a recent situation.

I had to do a house refurb and the instructions were to add a few sockets to the ring where necessary, but when I saw the consumer unit, with no cover and rewirable fuses, no water main or gas bonded and all the lighting circuits with no cpc I wondered just how far, bearing in mind the property will be rented out, one needs to go to bring, or not, the property up to date.

Any clarification would be much appreciated.

David

Hello David,

you have now entered the mad house......

beware of staying on line after midnight!

the vet has a chainsaw you know! :O

howdy budGuiness DrinkGuiness DrinkGuiness Drink

THE fundamental point is reg 131.8

NO alteration temp or permanent shall be made without checking rating & condition of existing installation AND that bonding is adequate!

{paraphrase beer correction factor version!BlushingGuiness Drink}IMHO if a later problem arose that could be pointed back to you..

a legal person could quite nicely say to you...

you are qualified and you understand this basic "fundamental principal"

as per the regs you are trained & work to..

so if you go against this reg... wot leg can you stand on? ?:| ? :|

IF there are any really bad bits you are unhappy about..

You have no legal right to insist the customer does anything..

remember BS7671 is non statutory,

and you shouldn't mess with an installation you consider dangerous. see above reg!

But you do have an obligation to advise the customer,

preferably IN WRITING of your concerns,

(they may wish to have a second opinion, which is a perfectly reasonable choice.)

IF the customer gives you the go-ahead to carry out remedial work

then do the biz!

job dun get the money!

 

[Robojin]

I couldn't see how it would be "Criminal damage", unless you made it so that they couldn't switch it back on!I'd just switch the isolator and give them a "Danger notice"!!

that's what I meant to write, doh!

 

[davidl]

Good morning to all, and thanks for the welcome,

Thanks for all the advice it is really helpful, and it's really nice to have found somewwhere friendly to ask questions.

To be honest, I was using the last job just completed, under Building Control, and this one which was to be just a minor as part of the NICIEC assesment.And was only meant to be a couple of extra sockets, with the visit from the NICIEC scheduled for next Tuesday. I know I will have to change the CU and will use RCBOs in each cuircit and I will bond the gas and water but my problem is now there is not much time to get Building Control involved prior to changing the CU.

I spoke to the electrician who oversees works for the local Building Control and his attitude was that the lighting cuircits must be rewired as a Duty of Care on behalf of the landlord.

Thanks again for all your help.

This forum is going to become compulsive I'm sure.

Kind regards

David

 

[GreekIslandLover]

I spoke to the electrician who oversees works for the local Building Control and his attitude was that the lighting cuircits must be rewired as a Duty of Care on behalf of the landlord.

That makes sense. What's to stop them taking down your class II fittings and putting up metal fittings with halogen lamps whilst you are driving away from the property and the tyre prints are still fresh on the drive?

We've had the criminal damage argument at work with refurbing a kitchen in a council house. I'm not sure of how it was left, but the situation is that the punter has been doing a lot of diy lighting in 2 core flex and our guy wanted to diconnect it as he felt it was dangerous. The tenant didn't want that, so our guy reported this back and was told to leave it alone due to the criminal damage possibility. I think we and/or the council were notifying him about it, and hopefully womeone somewhere will make a decision for the future. But I don't hold out much hope of that actually happening!

It is nuts that we can't disconnect dangerous wiring that is likely to kill without the possibility of legal action against us! I'm really not sure how it would hold up in court though. If we had photographic evidence of the installation, could state why it was a danger and our peers would agree with our assessment of the danger I would hope the judge would throw it out. Personally, I'd take the stance of making it safe and notifying them in writing. I thin it's better to risk a frivolous criminal damage claim than a claim for burning down the house or electrucuting the neighbours kid charge any day.

 

[elvis]

This is the thing with private landlords (as I'm sure you know), most of them want the work done as cheap as possible and sometimes you just have to give them your honest advice and walk away in the knowledge that they'll get some 'howdy partner' in to do what they want for wallies... Yeehaw, we're gonna have ourselves a burnin!!

 

[great68]

Had an interesting debate on this in collage (as not every one could agree),

Do you go there to learn how to assemble big pictures ?

 

[Apache]

Do you go there to learn how to assemble big pictures ?

Applaud Smiley you joined just to point that out

Welcome

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Do you go there to learn how to assemble big pictures ?

hello Great68...

nice first post Applaud SmileyGuiness DrinkGuiness DrinkGuiness DrinkGuiness Drink