if max zs is exceeded

[Andy™]

just seems to me that some or a lot of the "Longer standing" "Time served" Sparks just don't like anyone or agree to any of the course providers for adult learners. They just seem to see us as wanabees who know nothing.Probably why I just read a lot on the forum and don't post many threads.

the reason many people dont like the 5 week courses is you end up 'qualified' yet know absolutely nothing.

 

[S60TEM]

hasn't taken me 5 weeks mate, taken me a

 

[sellers]

I'm open to anyone who wants to learn and if someone takes their spare time to come on this forum to ask and answer questions then that is a form of competentcy in itself. The ability to realise you may need help with something, instead of guessing!!

I'm only 23 and can't answer all the questions but neither can the sparks who are 40+, everyday is a school day for everyone. The best sparks are the ones that take all the good ideas off all of the others instead of thinking their way is the best and only way.

Like I did last week, using a hand saw to cut out neat chases for switch drops. Sure is tidier than using my sds bit. Thanks specs

 

[Andy™]

Its impossible.

we all know that. but the problem is others dont. whilst you may be doing things the proper way, others just do a 5 week course, become 'qualified', then come here once scam reg'd and ask basic questions because they have no idea. yet they are working in peoples houses with others lives depending on their work

 

[S60TEM]

totally agree there mate!

I refuse to join a scheme until I feel I'm ready and can fulfill my obligation etc. I'm confident I would be accepted now but i'm just gonna wait till after christmas and do it in my own time as my Brother in Law is NAPIT approved so it covers our work.

 

[Andy™]

napit does not cover anyone else work (unless you employed/working for them). no scam providers do. only LABC can

 

[S60TEM]

I do work for my brother in law

 

[Andy™]

I do work for my brother in law

thats OK then. some people think that they can work on their own and get someone who is reg'd to sign off their work

 

[Manator]

just seems to me that some or a lot of the "Longer standing" "Time served" Sparks just don't like anyone or agree to any of the course providers for adult learners. They just seem to see us as wanabees who know nothing.Probably why I just read a lot on the forum and don't post many threads.

I am afraid you will always get this in all walks of life. If these courses had been available 20 or 30 years ago perhaps even more would be now qualified electricians.

In the late 80's I was working for a major house builder who after a serious reccesion laid off almost all of the electricians, one guy I worked with decided to become a HGV driver and the goverment paid for his course. About 5 or 6 years later I met up with him again, just after the minors strikes and pit closures. I asked him how he was doing and his reply was on the lines of, the job was great until all the minors decided they wanted to be wagon drivers.

This forum recognises all skills, but everyone should learn to be open and honest, that way answers can be more constuctive.

One of the best ways for older electricians to keep up with developments is to listen to their apprentices, learning is a two way road.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

just seems to me that some or a lot of the "Longer standing" "Time served" Sparks just don't like anyone or agree to any of the course providers for adult learners. They just seem to see us as wanabees who know nothing.Probably why I just read a lot on the forum and don't post many threads.

Personally I think that assumption is wrong.....

Anyone who has completed a training course by whatever path should have an understanding of the basics by the time they complete the course..

That is the items that you learn DURING the course not after the course...

Much like I would expect any person who has taken driving lessons with whatever route..

Intensive cram course.

20+ weeks 4 hours per week.

40+ weeks 1 hour per week.

Every afternoon with a family friend.

etc..

etc..

... to understand the basic difference between the brake & the clutch when they have completed the course...

not to start asking after they have finished "What does the middle pedal do again?"

The problem is that some of the electrical questions asked are of this caliber from people who have previous said they have completed, (and passed) their courses and are now working for themselves.

So I am not sure what sort of response you would expect..

When trying to give an answer to someone you need to asses their ability so that you can give an answer to an appropriate knowledge level..

e.g. probably don't go talking about Earth Loop Impedance to a DIY'ers question.

Whereas someone who claims to be a qualified spark you shouldn't need to start asking

do you know where the fusebox is.. has it got switches on it.. have you checked all of the circuit breakers are on..

It is a TWO-WAY interaction..

Question & Answer..

both parties need to know what level they are talking at!

:SaluteGuinness

 

[Megaohm7]

hasn't taken me 5 weeks mate, taken me a

 

[steptoe]

hasn't taken me 5 weeks mate, taken me a

 

[kme]

I`m afraid i`m keeping the thread "off-topic", as far as the O/P question is concerned.

Generally, we don`t know each other; apart from the info we provide on the forum. Therefore, we have to form our opinion of someone based on what they tell us, and the type of post they generally give. If this gives a poor response to members who misrepresent their capabilities and skill levels - does that make it OUR fault?

TBH, if we really didn`t have an interest in germinating our knowledge and skills to others, we wouldn`t be posting here. All advice, help etc. is given freely, with the caveat that the technical level of the answer is generally gauged to the presumed competancy of the O/P.

If the OP "dreams" they are something, and posts that here as fact, we, being naturally trusting / gullible (delete as appropriate), take that as gospel, and gauge our responses and attitudes to that person appropriately.

I`m fairly sure I speak for the vast majority of the members S60 refers to, if I say that the judgmental responses are usually the result of someone pertaining to be something they are not. I don`t class all "young" members as 5DW or idiots; indeed some members with zero formal training are extremely "switched on", and have posted points I have never thought of, as have some of those who have understood that the qualification is the beginning of the learning process; not the end of it.

KME

 

[S60TEM]

10k? After laying out that sort of money you must be serious about becoming an electrician.

Had my own business which I sold for a change of direction in life and had a bit of capital gains that needed re-investing. Always enjoyed electrical work so it was the natural progression for me really.

 

[Andy™]

you dont really need 2391 straight away. infact, if i were you, i would wait until you have more experience first

 

[gordy71]

If the zs is too high check all connections etc, If all is sound then either install a bigger cable or 30ma rcd to achieve disconnection time. simples! NO nee d for people being patronising on these forums sometimes the answer from a fellow profesional makes more sense than the regs book.

 

[Megaohm7]

Had my own business which I sold for a change of direction in life and had a bit of capital gains that needed re-investing. Always enjoyed electrical work so it was the natural progression for me really.

 

[ADS]

Where an RCD is used to satisfy the requirements of Regulation 411.3.2.2, the maximum values of earth fault loop impedance in Table 41.5 may be applied for non-delayed RCD's to BS EN 61008-1 and BS EN 61009-1 for final circuits not exceeding 32A. 411.3.2.2 ...Maximum disconnection times for final circuits

Table 41.5 ...Max Zs (i.e. 1667)

this confuses me

contridicts itself

Doesn't contradict itself, mate.

What it is saying is that if an RCD is used for 'earth fault protection' to satisfy the required disconnection times of Regulation 411.3.2.2, then the 'Maximum EFLI' figures given in 'Table 41.5' apply.

So, if for whatever reason you see fit to use an RCD for 'earth fault protection', then the figures you apply are from Table 41.5.

This is acceptable.

Where the bad practise comes in is if you can't meet Max Zs figure for a circuit protected by a MCB, and, rather than investigate the cause of the high Zs reading, you take that attitude of - "Well, it's an RCD board, so that will do"

 

[andy_spark]

Had my own business which I sold for a change of direction in life and had a bit of capital gains that needed re-investing. Always enjoyed electrical work so it was the natural progression for me really.

 

[batty]

I know its off topic but, I myself have also followed a similar route as S60TEM and thinking about it have also paid out same sort of amounts on these items. I didn't have my own business but was a Telecomms Engineer, and had worked in the past with a family friend who was a self-employed electrican on rewires etc. Having always been pratical and enjoyed the work I decided to make a change. The so called "5 Week W****** course" took me 10 months to complete, during which time I was working part time (unpaid) with said electrcian and part-time (paid - just) in a well known supermarket. I was lucky in having access to 3 sparks with a combined knowledge of about 100 years to learn from.

Since then I am/have been working for electrical contractors on sites as a mate, but have joined a scam as it is helping expand my business. The whole process to date has taken nearly 3 years and I am now about to start NVQ 2356 level 3, then at some point will have an electrician JIB card not Trainee.

Meanwhile all my own jobs have been to done to a high standard with plenty of thought about regs and consultation of OSG. I am however receiving postive feedback and repeat custom (a sign something is right).

Everyday on site I am learning more and have never said I knew everything after the "5 Week W****** course" because I didn't. But by watching others, a bit of effort, attention to detail, common sense and questioning why things have been done the way they have, it is possible to get the knowledge required if you want to.

For every 5ww who can't grasp the concept of Zs or resistances in parallel, and there were some on my course, there are others who can. Much the same way there are plenty of "time served" sparks who's work is of a poor standard.

Please don't assume every 5ww is the same.

Its sounds to me that you are taking a sensible cours to get in the electrical trade. My problem with the 5 week wonders so to speak they do the course and think they are an electrician they may be on paper but doing courses does not make you an electrician its the working with an experienced electrician that will do that.