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sparkies2306

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Hi guys and Gals

This question has probably been asked a few times but ill ask again

i have a big unit to do its for a poundland shop we have a lot of cable tray to fit from front to back

I was looking for a tripod laser level that will that would project a line up on slab from one end to another i have seen a laser level that does a full square cielin walls and floors but dont no the make

any help much appreciated

 
i have a pls2e its very good for tray and trunking working, never used it on a tripod though. Costly but well worth it.

Everyone else seems to have the dewalt laser and are very happy with it.

They may not fire a line the length of most poundlands though u would have to do it in sections.

 
Quick daft question, sort of on topic, related to using Laser levels.........

If you are using them on site with other trades working,

what precautions do you apply H&S'wise to prevent other contractors looking directly into your laser beam???

i.e. to clarify...

I have a cheapo laser level.. can't think of the make! :(TBH its not used that often.

but it does have a big yellow sticker warning about not looking directly into the beam.....

can't think that I have used it much when other contractors are around...

But I wouldn't want any accident claims for eye damage due to me not taking appropriate heath & safety risk assessment and precautions etc..

p.s.

sorry sparkies2306 I am not hi-jacking your thread just seemed an appropriate related point for consideration....

If you want it shifted to a new thread, just give the nod and we can ask the mods or Admin to do the housekeeping! :D :Blushing

:x :SaluteGuinness

 
I think thats a valid point on the thread mate, TBH - I`ve thought about it, but never gone beyond "guys - I`ve got a laser in the kitchen - about head height. Watch your eyes!"

Don`t know if that would cover me (builders tend to have carp eyesight anyway, so the laser`d probably improve the quality of their work ;) , but I`m only talking a cheapy rotary. If you were using a "pro" model, with high-intensity beam, it could, theoretically, cause retinal damage.

Good question bud Guinness

 
if there is a problem with retina damage from lasers im sure the dryliners would be causing more of a problem than us, and putting themselves in much greater contact with some serious pieces of laser equipment.

 
i quite agree apache but on a site with a site grade laser has anyone actually suffered any harm?

If you look directly at the laser your natural reaction is to look away, if you are stupid enough to look directly at it for a length of time to do damage I think you are being unreasonable with regard to your own health and safety.

Looking at the sun can be dangerous!!!

Im no health and safety man (yet haha) and still getting my head around the principles but i think this could be a problem that either does not exist or has arisen yet as i have never received any warning about laser when working around other trades on sites.

 
Which, I think, is exactly trailer boy`s point mate - as `pache says, there IS a definite risk to your eyesight; yet the person in charge of the laser doesn`t inform you of this..... are they neglecting their H&S requirements by not doing so?

Good point about dry-liners; though we don`t have many on the forum to ask......

KME

 
notes 1: from wiki:

Class 1

CLASS 1 LASER PRODUCT



A class 1 laser is safe under all conditions of normal use. This means the maximum permissible exposure (MPE) cannot be exceeded. This class includes high-power lasers within an enclosure that prevents exposure to the radiation and that cannot be opened without shutting down the laser. For example, a continuous laser at 600 nm can emit up to 0.39 mW, but for shorter wavelengths, the maximum emission is lower because of the potential of those wavelengths to generate photochemical damage. The maximum emission is also related to the pulse duration in the case of pulsed lasers and the degree of spatial coherence.

[edit] Class 1M

LASER RADIATION

DO NOT VIEW DIRECTLY WITH OPTICAL INSTRUMENTS

CLASS 1M LASER PRODUCT



A Class 1M laser is safe for all conditions of use except when passed through magnifying optics such as microscopes and telescopes. Class 1M lasers produce large-diameter beams, or beams that are divergent. The MPE for a Class 1M laser cannot normally be exceeded unless focusing or imaging optics are used to narrow the beam. If the beam is refocused, the hazard of Class 1M lasers may be increased and the product class may be changed. A laser can be classified as Class 1M if the total output power is below class 3B but the power that can pass through the pupil of the eye is within Class 1.

[edit] Class 2

LASER RADIATION

DO NOT STARE INTO BEAM

CLASS 2 LASER PRODUCT



A Class 2 laser is safe because the blink reflex will limit the exposure to no more than 0.25 seconds. It only applies to visible-light lasers (400

 
Taken from Quanta medical:

Exposure to the laser beam is not limited to direct beam exposure. Particularly for high powered lasers, exposure to beam reflections may be just as damaging as exposure to the primary beam.

Intrabeam exposure means that the eye or skin is exposed directly to all or part of the laser beam. The eye or skin is exposed to the full irradiance or radiant exposure possible.

Specular reflections from mirror surfaces can be nearly as harmful as exposure to the direct beam, particularly if the surface is flat. Curved mirror-like surfaces will widen the beam such that while the exposed eye or skin does not absorb the full impact of the beam, there is a larger area for possible exposure.

A diffuse surface is a surface that will reflect the laser beam in many directions. Mirror-like surfaces that are not completely flat, such as jewelry or metal tools, may cause diffuse reflections of the beam. These reflections do not carry the full power or energy of the primary beam, but may still be harmful, particularly for high powered lasers. Diffuse reflections from Class 4 lasers are capable of initiating fires.

Whether a surface is a diffuse reflector or a specular reflector will depend upon the wavelength of the beam. A surface that would be a diffuse reflector for a visible laser may be a specular reflector for an infrared laser beam.

Eye Hazzards

The major danger of laser light is hazards from beams entering the eye. The eye is the organ most sensitive to light. Just as a magnifying glass can be used to focus the sun and burn wood, the lens in the human eye focuses the laser beam into a tiny spot than can burn the retina. A laser beam with low divergence entering the eye can be focused down to an area 10 to 20 microns in diameter.

The laws of thermodynamics do not limit the power of lasers. The second law states that the temperature of a surface heated by a beam from a thermal source of radiation cannot exceed the temperature of the source beam. The laser is a non-thermal source and is able to generate temperatures far greater than it's own. A 30 mW laser operating at room temperature is capable of producing enough energy (when focused) to instantly burn through paper.

Per the law of the conservation of energy, the energy density (measure of energy per unit of area) of the laser beam increases as the spot size decreases. This means that the energy of a laser beam can be intensified up to 100,000 times by the focusing action of the eye. If the irradiance entering the eye is 1 mW/cm2, the irradiance at the retina will be 100 W/cm2. Thus, even a low power laser in the milliwatt range can cause a burn if focused directly onto the retina.

NEVER point a laser at someone's eyes no matter how low the power of the laser.

Structure Of The Eye

Damage to the eye is dependent upon the wavelength of the beam. In order to understand the possible health effects, it is important to understand the functions of the major parts of the human eye.

cornea is the transparent layer of tissue covering the eye. Damage to the outer cornea may be uncomfortable (like a gritty feeling) or painful, but will usually heal quickly. Damage to deeper layers of the cornea may cause permanent injury.

laser-safety-eye.gif
Figure 9. Cross section of the human eye.


The lens focuses light to form images onto the retina. Over time, the lens becomes less pliable, making it more difficult to focus on near objects. With age, the lens also becomes cloudy and eventually opacifies. This is known as a cataract. Every lens develops cataract eventually.

The part of the eye that provides the most acute vision is the fovea centralis (also called the macula lutea). This is a relatively small area of the retina (3 to 4%) that provides the most detailed and acute vision as well as color perception. This is why eyes move when you read or when you look as something; the image has to be focused on the fovea for detailed perception. The balance of the retina can perceive light and movement, but not detailed images (peripheral vision).

If a laser burn occurs on the fovea, most fine (reading and working) vision may be lost in an instant. If a laser burn occurs in the peripheral vision it may produce little or no effect on fine vision. Repeated retinal burns can lead to blindness.

Fortunately the eye has a self-defense mechanism -- the blink or aversion response. When a bright light hits the eye, the eye tends to blink or turn away from the light source (aversion) within a quarter of a second. This may defend the eye from damage where lower power lasers are involved, but cannot help where higher power lasers are concerned. With high power lasers, the damage can occur in less time than a quarter of a second.

Symptoms of a laser burn in the eye include a headache shortly after exposure, excessive watering of the eyes, and sudden appearance of floaters in your vision. Floaters are those swirling distortions that occur randomly in normal vision most often after a blink or when eyes have been closed for a couple of seconds. Floaters are caused by dead cell tissues that detach from the retina and choroid and float in the vitreous humor. Ophthalmologists often dismiss minor laser injuries as floaters due to the very difficult task of detecting minor retinal injuries. Minor corneal burns cause a gritty feeling, like sand in the eye.

Several factors determine the degree of injury to the eye from laser light:

  • pupil size
    - The shrinking of pupil diameter reduces the amount of total energy delivered to the retinal surface. Pupil size ranges from a 2 mm diameter in bright sun to an 8 mm diameter in darkness (night vision).
  • degree of pigmentation
    - More pigment (melanin) results in more heat absorption.
  • size of retinal image
    - The larger the size, the greater the damage because temperature equilibrium must be achieved to do damage. The rate of equilibrium formation is determined by the size of the image.
  • pulse duration
    - The shorter the time (ns versus ms), the greater the chance of injury.
  • pulse repetition rate
    - The faster the rate, the less chance for heat dissipation and recovery.
  • wavelength
    - determines where the energy deposits and how much gets through the ocular media.


Eye Absorption Site vs. Wavelength

The wavelength determines where the laser energy is absorbed in the eye.

laser-safety-ocularabsorption.jpg

Lasers in the visible and near infrared range of the spectrum have the greatest potential for retinal injury, as the cornea and the lens are transparent to those wavelengths and the lens can focus the laser energy onto the retina. The maximum absorption of laser energy onto the retina occurs in the range from 400 - 550 nm. Argon and YAG lasers operate in this range, making them the most hazardous lasers with respect to eye injuries. Wavelengths of less than 550 nm can cause a photochemical injury similar to sunburn. Photochemical effects are cumulative and result from long exposures (over 10 seconds) to diffuse or scattered light. Table 3 summarizes the most likely effects of overexposure to various commonly used lasers.

Skin Hazzards

Lasers can harm the skin via photochemical or thermal burns. Depending on the wavelength, the beam may penetrate both the epidermis and the dermis. The epidermis is the outermost living layer of skin. Far and Mid-ultraviolet (the actinic UV) are absorbed by the epidermis. A sunburn (reddening and blistering) may result from short-term exposure to the beam. UV exposure is also associated with an increased risk of developing skin cancer and premature aging (wrinkles, etc) of the skin. Thermal burns to the skin are rare. They usually require exposure to high energy beams for an extended period of time. Carbon dioxide and other infrared lasers are most commonly associated with thermal burns, since this wavelength range may penetrate deeply into skin tissue. The resulting burn may be first degree (reddening), second degree (blistering) or third degree (charring).

Some individuals are photosensitive or may be taking prescription drugs that induce photosensitivity. Particular attention must be given to the effect of these (prescribed) drugs, including some antibiotics and fungicides, on the individual taking the medication and working with or around lasers.

KME

 
And, just to finish.......

Van Norren et al. (1998)[20] could not find a single example in the medical literature of a <1 mW class III laser causing eyesight damage. Mainster et al. (2003)[21] provide one case, an 11 year old child who temporarily damaged her eyesight by holding an approximately 5 mW red laser pointer close to the eye and staring into the beam for 10 seconds, she experienced scotoma (a blind spot) but fully recovered after 3 months. Luttrulla & Hallisey (1999) describe a similar case, a 34 year old male who stared into the beam of a class IIIa red laser for 30 to 60 seconds, causing temporary central scotoma and visual field loss. His eyesight fully recovered within 2 days, at the time of his eye exam. An intravenous fundus fluorescein angiogram, a technique used by ophthalmologists to visualise the retina of the eye in fine detail, identified subtle discoloration of the fovea.

But the colour also has an effect:

Cheap green laser pointers can emit dangerous levels of infrared radiation, according to an investigation carried out by physicists in the US.

Twenty years ago, a green laser would set you back $100,000 and occupy a good-sized dining room table. Today, you can buy a green laser pointer the size of a ball point pen for $15.

These devices create coherent green light in a three step process. A standard laser diode first generates near infrared light with a wavelength of 808nm. This is focused onto a neodymium crystal that converts the light into infrared with a wavelength of 1064nm. In the final step, the light passes into a frequency doubling crystal that emits green light at a wavelength of 532nm.

All this can easily be assembled into a cigar-sized package and powered by a couple of AAA batteries.

The result are devices generally advertised to have a power output of 10mW.

Today, Jemellie Galang and pals from the National Institute of Standards and Technology and the University of Maryland say they've found worrying evidence that the output of some green laser pointers is much higher and more insidious. They describe one $15 green laser pointer that actually emits ten times more infrared than green light.

 
Just to finish this - a UK company, selling a 5mW laser "pen" issues the following T&C:

TERMS & Conditions

Upon Purchase of this item you are confirming you fully understand / shall adhere to the following .

You Understand that purchase of this product BINDS you to these terms / conditions.

You understand that purchase of this product is NOT available without acceptance of these terms and conditions, purchase binds you to these terms conditions


  • Your are over 18 years of age


  • You understand this product is offered for sale as an OEM Product for use with other components. Purchase of this item confirms you are aware that is it NOT a public Presentation laser pointer. These units are for Scientific , industrial , theatrical , film , forensic , chemical analysis ,specialized lighting etc


  • You fully understand this is not a public presentation laser and that it shall not be used in areas of open public or general presentations for business .


  • You understand UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD THE GENERAL PUBLIC BE ABLE TO COME IN CONTACT WITH THE BEAM OR DOT PROJECTED OR BE ABLE TO CROSS THE PATH OF THE BEAM FROM THIS LASER AS THIS MAY ALLOW ACCIDENTAL EXPOSURE


  • You will ensure the site is inspected prior to use and assed for any dangers , in particular any objects which the laser beam may reflect from as reflection does not reduce the energy transmitted in the beam of laser light.


  • That you understand this product may be EYE DANGEROUS , and you understand we accept no liability whatsoever should you Injure yourself or anyone else when this product is in use. Purchase of this Product confirms that you aware that we accept NO LIABILITY WHATSOEVER , it is YOUR responsibility to use this item safely and also that you meet your obligations under Health and Safety legislation and criminal law.


  • That you understand abuse or misuse of this product may open you to criminal proceedings under the laws of your country or under Health and Safety legislation for your country.


  • You understand the safe use of lasers requires that all laser users, and everyone near the laser system, are aware of the dangers involved. The safe use of the laser depends upon the user being familiar with the instrument and the characteristics of laser light.


  • You understand Utmost care MUST be taken with Both STORAGE and USAGE to protect from accidental exposure . You understand all lasers are dangerous if misused and that above 20mW even the Brightness of the Dot on a close wall can cause temporary flash blindness without direct exposure to eyes. These items are designed for specialist uses and must not be used in normal typical conference presentations etc under ANY circumstances. T


  • You understand that these lasers must be kept locked away from children for the entire lifetime of the laser.


  • You understand clearly that you cannot purchase this item without agreement to our terms and conditions



So, if it were me - I`d try to be as carefully around ANY laser as possible - with suggestions that cheaper models may, in fact, be more dangerous than expensive ones.......If there is a substantial amount of IR light, you can`t even see it!




KME

edit: given the remarks regarding optical focussing, perhaps those with prescription glasses / contact lenses are at a substantially higher risk; though I read anything about that specifically, it makes logical sense.


 
just been to the van mines class 2 and <1mW.

It just says 'do not stare into the beam' .

 
i suppose its just an extension of what you would be doing anyway, if someone enters the area you are working you inform them of the danger, working over head trailing leads ect,ect, you say mind the laser. (dont stare at it moron)

TBH i do this anyway 1. so they dont knock it and balls up my levels 2. so they dont knock it and damage it 3. so if it goes missing they are aware i know they were working near and knew it was there so i will be coming to them not very happy.

 
I have been using a piece of string and a chalk line for years , will they have caused any retinal damage ? :p

Although we did borrow a Dewalt from the partitioning guys a few jobs back , to fix our dado trunking to , excellent .

 
I have been using a piece of string and a chalk line for years , will they have caused any retinal damage ? :p .
Probably not, but was it ever level? :p :D

 
Just to go back to the OP, my wife is a merchandiser at Poundland and has been for the last 6 or 7 years I am sure she can get one for you, for a pound!!

TBH I have used lasers in the past but unless you pay top dollar for them they are next to useless, one knock and they go out of alignment.

I almost always use a chalk line nowadays, then drill along the line for the space offs or break points, then drill the other side when its fixed in place.

For running cables above a suspender I almost always use cable tie backers or top hats screw fitted to the joists, cables run in the tie wrap/zip tie, when all cables are in position close the tie wrap and you have a nice clean run of cables properly supported.

 
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