Led Lamp Problem - Any Ideas?

[WR Electrics]

Hi all - sorry for long post here - any help welcome - cheers.

Went to a customers house few weeks ago to do a job. While we were there they asked about LED lamps etc (they have downlights in the downstairs kitchen, lounge and bathroom from a full rewire they had 6 years ago). As we were already there for the day doing the other job I said we would fit them for free if they did want them and so the story starts...

Fittings in the house were low voltage throughout. We used the Diall LED 4.5W MR16 GU5.3. Not a cheap bulb and one that we have used many, many times before without a problem. They are not dimmable but nor are any of the existing switches/fittings etc. Sent one of the lads to get them, fitted them all, finished the original job, customer well pleased, cup of tea to finish and van loaded by 4.30, lovely....

A week later, get the call - the lamps have all started to flicker. Ok. Have had that before with switch/transformer compatibility issues so we go down with a box of new transformers (that we have used with the Diall lamps before no problem) and new internal gubbins for every fitting. We pop those in and all is well, the flickering stops and we get another cup of tea. The customer is obviously a little miffed it's costing more money, but we only charged the materials and fitted for free, so customer still happy and away we go.

A week later, we get the call - One lamp in each room (bathroom, dining room and kitchen) is not properly lit and is showing a halo/angel eye effect (pics below, hopefully!).

The switches in the dining room and kitchen are the same (unbranded) but the bathroom is switched from the outside and is an MK switch. When I was there we could get them working randomly by flicking the switches on/off several times in succession etc but this is obviously not acceptable.

I no longer get cups of tea when I go to the job, it's starting to cost me money now and I really would like to get to the bottom of this...

Any ideas?

(IR tests done, all ok, general install all seems good, only 6 years old, no reasons found to suspect bodge job etc)

Sorry for the lengthy post chaps. If you got this far, thanks for reading!

 

[steptoe]

a couple of things

you are beating yourself up by fitting ELV LEDs to start with

DIALL are diy gear,

fit some proper lamps and have done with, cheap chinese carp,

I know a lost of good stuff comes from china, but I very much doubt the diall ones fall into that category.

get some 230v Kosnics or similar,

 

[Manator]

Have you tested the switch for let through voltage in open and closed? If you have had to flick the switch several times to get them to work I would suspect a fault at the switch. Then I would look for a loose connection somewhere.

 

[NozSpark]

TBH it sounds lie an incompatability issue...

I would have changed them for GU10 lamps myself,,,, less to go wrong

Our wholesaler are going away from Kosnics due to returns...

Going over to Amitex ones now

 

[steptoe]

close on 5years now for kosnics Ive fitted and no returns yet,,,,,,,

got 6 in my own house that burn pretty much 24/7 for over 4years, still going strong.

 

[WR Electrics]

Yeah, acknowledge the Dialls are probably not the best. We rarely use the MR16's but we have not had any problems with the Diall GU10's. We used Megamans last year which do feel better made and in my opinion have a better light but have been proving a tough sell to customers on price. We started using the Dialls as sort of mid-budget point late last year. Think they did quite well in a Which? report or something like that and it prompted us to look at them. We have not had any trouble or call backs on about 20 or so installs so far...until this one.

And yes - tbh when we went back the first time I said to the lad I'd love to rip out pretty much all the fittings, GU10 all the way round and a couple of the sealed units for the bathroom. But yeah...was originally a cheap and easy add-on to a job and it's running away with itself for us and the customer.

Had all switches off and swapped a couple round etc - same result.

Loose connection I kind of rule out at this stage as we have re-terminated all of the fittings to the d/stairs lighting and the lamps do glow instantly when turned on. Did also test with a set of beeps at one of them as we turned it on and off and the 12v comes in instant with the switch.

Think though that does sum it up - stop cutting costs on LED - if they won't pay it then don't fit it!! Reckon i'm going back with handful of pricey lamps and some new switches...swallow the cost and move on...

Kosnic? Not used their LEDs before. Will have a look at those. Cheers.

 

[batty]

Yes I certainly wouldn't fit LED's on LV transformers GU10's any day. Or LED 7's if its new job. 

 

[WR Electrics]

Yes, we are finding it a bit of a minefield with the compatibility etc at the moment. It's sometimes difficult to tell if you have got faulty gear or an incompatibility issue.

My wholesaler is a Megaman devotee.. Will have a chat with them on Monday but pretty sure I haven't seen Kosnics in there. Amitex have been mentioned to me this week. Can't recall where that was. Might have been Cef? Tend to find them a bit expensive at the best of times anyway though.

 

[batty]

There are plenty of sponsors that sell LED's on here. Maybe try one of those.

 

[Evans Electric]

I fear we may inherit a backlash with LED problems as the market seems to offer more and more choices but we really do not know what is quality and what is'nt  at the moment . 

My mate has just dealt with some JCC s we fitted .  We use them a lot ,  these were fitted around 8 months ago , the downlights with intergrated lamp you cannot remove.......fitting guaranteed for 7 years  or 100 billion hours or something  ( But guarantee only valid if customer proves they were fitted by a Phart P registered spark.  )

We told him to register the fittings because of the initial cost and gave him our roll number for the form but he could'nt be bothered .

We have had to replace 2 fittings free of charge under the standard one years guarantee,  couple of hours , local job , no big deal but could have been further away . 

Millionaire bloke we are doing a load of work for  supplies all his own stuff,  ( Can always get it cheaper than we can)    ((Of  course he can , theres no 20% mark up for a start))      Hes just bought  60 odd  5 W LED  GU10s   @ £1.60 ea   direct off the Chinese importer .  Cheapest I ever heard of .............but  ..........what is the quality , ...we shall see . 

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

As we were already there for the day doing the other job I said we would fit them for free

We used the Diall LED 4.5W MR16 GU5.3.......

Have had that before with switch/transformer compatibility issues so we go down with a box of new transformers

only charged the materials and fitted for free,

One lamp in each room (bathroom, dining room and kitchen) is not properly lit and is showing a halo/angel eye effect (pics below, hopefully!).

it's starting to cost me money now and I really would like to get to the bottom of this...

Any ideas?

Ideas??

1/  Running a charity or a business??

It never works for me when in the supermarket if I pick up spur of the moment choices I still have to pay full price for them...

Why do electricians think their customer spur of the moment choices mean you have to offer discount??

It started costing you money when you agreed to initially fit for free...

any work for free is costing you money!

2/  MR16 LED fitted first to existing unknown transformer..

By your own admission transformers can have compatibility issues...

Why did you not fit LEDs + manufactures recommended transformer to start with???

2a/  your LEDs could have been damaged by incompatible transformer..

fitting new transformer to LED you have already knackerd still = knackerd LED's!!

2b/  I am assuming you DO have individual transformers per lamp....

NOT groups of lamp off one transformer??

3/  If the original bits were installed correctly then failed..

Why didn't you just take them back to the supplier to get your money back under 12 months warranty??

:C

 

[NozSpark]

Well....

Daill stuff is b&q.... I'm sure kerch has something to say about their customer service

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

All 12v led's I have looked at say the lamp life will be reduced & invalidate the warrentee if used through a transformer, and should be replaced with a correct driver.

 

[Richard-the-Ninth]

I can not help but agree / echo what has been said.

WR Electrics you clearly said "so we go down with a box of new transformers"

A transformer will operate a LED, but it is also having to put up with the current flowing the wrong way (Since AC is alternating current) this constant cycling will break down the LED  

You really want an LED driver. These supply  true DC.

I also concur that you should also change the lamps too, and chalk it up to experience and learn never to do anything for free as it always bites you in the bum.

 

 

[Blue Duck]

Bin the trannys bin the Mr16 fittings use gu10+ good lamps! Bit late now....

I had heard that bnq had made one of the worst led lamps :C I think that was which?

 

[Steve3948]

Some manufacturers make Mr16 LED lamps for direct swap out of existing halogen, they are not cheap so expect to pay around £15+ each.

Philips Master LED are one, however they still state will work with most existing transformers. GEC are another we have used with success.

We always try one before committing so carry various samples on the van for the client to see, Mr16 and GU10.

The Kosnic GU10 and Philips Mr16 we have found very reliable.

 

[batty]

Aurora do one but I fitted some that a customer supplied now and then they would do strange things dimming and flickering. Lucky for me he had supplied them so it was not my problem.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

I can not help but agree / echo what has been said.

WR Electrics you clearly said "so we go down with a box of new transformers"

A transformer will operate a LED, but it is also having to put up with the current flowing the wrong way (Since AC is alternating current) this constant cycling will break down the LED  

You really want an LED driver. These supply  true DC.

I also concur that you should also change the lamps too, and chalk it up to experience and learn never to do anything for free as it always bites you in the bum.

 

Not all LEDs require an LED driver,

e.g. as has been said there are various products on the market that claim to work with existing transformers...

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/LTMR7W.html?source=adwords&kw=mr16%20led%20bulbs&gclid=CNn5xZSfur0CFYMSwwodEJsApQ

Subject to "Minimum Wattage" limitations of the transformer..!

However..

I have no idea what these B&Q Diall ones claim and the the golden rule still is ..

Fully read the spec of both LED and transformer to verify compatibility... 

(and don't do the research/consultation/testing work for free!!!!!!! )

opcorn

 

[binky]

Fittings in the house were low voltage throughout. We used the Diall LED 4.5W MR16 GU5.3. Not a cheap bulb and one that we have used many, many times before without a problem. They are not dimmable but nor are any of the existing switches/fittings etc. Sent one of the lads to get them, fitted them all, finished the original job, customer well pleased, cup of tea to finish and van loaded by 4.30, lovely....

so you didn't change to LED drivers ????? Have had same problem, MR16 lamps claiming to be direct replacment for halogen from LED Hut, well they fit in the holes!!! Ditched in favour of GU10