Loft light installation.

[SXFOXSTAR]

So I have a loft with no lighting. However all of the upstairs light cabling is visible and I have a basic understanding of electrics so assume it is relatively easy to install a junction box off of an existing cable and install a switch to one maybe two bulbs at the apex.

I however wanted to ensure I did this correctly so wanted some advice. I link to an existing connection that has broken in the hope this may help with any advice.

So my questions are, I assume I will need a junction box, a switch and cabling to a socket.

Can you advise what size amp etc I would need to use and switch type as basically want the cable in one side and out the other mounted ON a beam ie not in the beam.

Image Image of existing junction

 

[Sharpend]

Is that junction box actually live or is it old obsolete cable? Only I notice a more modern cable (the grey) following similar route? 

 

[ProDave]

+1

I would say with near certainty that is an old disused junction box from previous wiring with VIR cable.

At least I would hope so.

 

[Andy™]

i hope thats an old and now redundant junction box & cable... otherwise youll be needing a re-wire. and might as well ask whoever does it to fit a loft light whilst they are up there

 

[SXFOXSTAR]

The house has very old wiring so they may be live, I'll have to have them to see if they are going to our upstairs lights. If it is live, what are the issues?

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

The house has very old wiring so they may be live, I'll have to have them to see if they are going to our upstairs lights. If it is live, what are the issues?

Non compliance with current wiring regulations..

Probably no earth on any of the lighting circuits..

Risk of fire or shock due to defective wiring..

Risk of deteriorating cable insulation as no inspection or testing of the installation been carried out..

etc...

etc...

Pretty much similar to if I asked you what are the issues with me driving a car with no current MOT when the car is 10+ years old?

All sorts of dangers and hazards..

Guinness

 

[Bruspark]

The house has very old wiring so they may be live, I'll have to have them to see if they are going to our upstairs lights. If it is live, what are the issues?

Apart from the damage to the old junctionbox the cables you showed in it are very old and may be the old 2 core rubber insulated type which, if so, are now long past their use-by-date.  Any mechanical disturbance to rubber cables can cause the insulation break up/fall off  into chunks which is not good.   There seemed to be a newer cable in the photo too so perhaps other circuits have added later..   The photo cannot tell us if the old cable is still in use

I think that an electrical inspection report is a must before thinking about anything else ...

 

[SXFOXSTAR]

Thank you. None of this came up in our full house inspection before purchase so I hope it is redundant. Thank you for all of your advice.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Thank you. None of this came up in our full house inspection before purchase so I hope it is redundant. Thank you for all of your advice.

Did you have a formal Electrical Installation Condition Report, (typically 5 or 6, A4 pages) carried out by a qualified electrician ....

Or just a 1hour visual inspection on a single A4 sheet, carried out buy an unskilled home assessor type bod?

:C

 

[SXFOXSTAR]

Did you have a formal Electrical Installation Condition Report, (typically 5 or 6, A4 pages) carried out by a qualified electrician ....

Or just a 1hour visual inspection on a single A4 sheet, carried out buy an unskilled home assessor type bod?

:C

So we had a full house survey not the basic one as I wasn't paying for it.

I have added some more pictures as I've been back up in the loft as quite concerned now More pictures

I am very confused by what I can see as it would seem the grey "modern cable is actually going to each light fitting and I can confirm my bathroom light which I replaced yesterday has live, neutral and earth wiring. However as you can see in some of the pictures there is only a red an black cable going from an old style junction to the grey cable which doesn't make sense as the bathroom has 3 core. 

From what I can see each light fitting has the grey cable connection but reaches that part of the house via the darker coloured cable.

I think I need to check the current at each connection before I can conclude any decisions but any thoughts please?

 

[Andy™]

think you need to get someone competent to come look at it... if it does go back to there then the 'earth' at the light may not actually be doing anything and if the fitting youve fitted needs it, and there is a fault, youre in for a shock (literally) if you touch it...

 

[SXFOXSTAR]

think you need to get someone competent to come look at it... if it does go back to there then the 'earth' at the light may not actually be doing anything and if the fitting youve fitted needs it, and there is a fault, youre in for a shock (literally) if you touch it...

Thanks. I am going to do a full overview of the loft now as from what I have seen there seems to be a lot of new cables coming up from the down stairs (which is giving me hope) but also a lot of old cabling which I am praying is redundant and will confirm using an voltage meter. But thank you all for your help.

 

[ProDave]

So we had a full house survey not the basic one as I wasn't paying for it.

I have added some more pictures as I've been back up in the loft as quite concerned now More pictures

Firstly a house survey of any type does not test the electrics.  There will be a sentence or 2 about you should appoint an electrician for a proper electrical test repot, known as an "Electrical Installation Condition Report"

Having seen those second photos it looks likely you have very old and unsafe electrics still in use on the lighting circuit, and that must put the whole installation in doubt.  Don't do anything more, get an electrician in to do that EICR.  worst case is you might need a full rewire.  Best case some substantial rework or a rewire of the lighting.

That old black cable is rubber insulation, probably 50 years old.  It goes brittle with age, particularly if that connects to the light fittings where it gets warm and will deteriorate even faster.  Don't even think of unscrewing any light switches to have a look, leave that for the electrician.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

So we had a full house survey not the basic one as I wasn't paying for it.

I have added some more pictures as I've been back up in the loft as quite concerned now More pictures

I am very confused by what I can see as it would seem the grey "modern cable is actually going to each light fitting and I can confirm my bathroom light which I replaced yesterday has live, neutral and earth wiring. However as you can see in some of the pictures there is only a red an black cable going from an old style junction to the grey cable which doesn't make sense as the bathroom has 3 core. 

From what I can see each light fitting has the grey cable connection but reaches that part of the house via the darker coloured cable.

I think I need to check the current at each connection before I can conclude any decisions but any thoughts please?

I will ask again...  do you have a formal Electrical Installation Condition Report, (typically 5 or 6, A4 pages) carried out by a qualified electrician ?

I get the impression that you just have just an estate agents generic house survey..

Which basically has nothing to do with correct testing or inspection of the installation as per BS7671 wiring regs.

Here's an example of the information that should be included on an electrical installation condition report:-

https://electrical.theiet.org/media/2208/bs-76712018-model-forms-electrical-installation-condition-report.pdf

Specifically do you have a sheet that looks similar in format to the page 9 on the above link.?

As that will give a breakdown of the composition of every circuit...

and tell us here how good/bad/or really bad the wiring is!

without proper testing with approved test equipment you are wasting you time taking photos of cables or trying to find any other random connections..

:|

 

[ProDave]

I am very confused by what I can see as it would seem the grey "modern cable is actually going to each light fitting and I can confirm my bathroom light which I replaced yesterday has live, neutral and earth wiring. However as you can see in some of the pictures there is only a red an black cable going from an old style junction to the grey cable which doesn't make sense as the bathroom has 3 core. 

From what I can see each light fitting has the grey cable connection but reaches that part of the house via the darker coloured cable.

I think I need to check the current at each connection before I can conclude any decisions but any thoughts please?

This old rubber cable is likely to fail first at a tlight fitting where the heat of the lamp dries out the rubber quicker.  What I suspect has happened in your case, is the cable at the lights has failed, and someone has done a bodge repair by replacing just a short bit of cable to each light, but still keeping the bulk of the original old rubber cable in use.  And as pointed out there is no earth so I hope you don't have any metal light fittings or light switches.

What they should have done was recognised the cable was passed it's end of life and rewired the whole light circuit.

One can only wonder what other circuits in the house may still be using the old rubber cable, which is why you need that EICR done.