Mobile Hot Food Trailers- Earthing

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Max6979

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I and other collegues routinely inspect hot burger trailers and we are somtimes shown documentation( EICReports) showing that it has satisfactory earthing arrangements- how can we be certain that the certificate is valid and what should we be looking for which might indicate that there isnt adequate earthing ( we rely on visual checks only and none of us have any testing equipment)?

I apologise now if a) you all shout at me for asking a question which is covered by the On site guide b) rely on more experienced engineers to base an opinion and c) I appear gormless but I thought that this forum may provide guidance and help with an issue which sometimes worries me and which I have not yet resolved in my own mind. Thanks

 
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Max6979 said:
I and other collegues routinely inspect hot burger trailers and we are somtimes shown documentation( EICReports) showing that it has satisfactory earthing arrangements- how can we be certain that the certificate is valid and what should we be looking for which might indicate that there isnt adequate earthing ( we rely on visual checks only and none of us have any testing equipment)?

I apologise now if a) you all shout at me for asking a question which is covered by the On site guide b) rely on more experienced engineers to base an opinion and c) I appear gormless but I thought that this forum may provide guidance and help with an issue which sometimes worries me and which I have not yet resolved in my own mind. Thanks
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I presume this is something to do with your earlier post? http://talk.electricianforum.co.uk/topic/25484-earthing-for-mobile-burger-vehicles/  Can I please ask what it actually is that you and your colleagues are employed to routinely inspect? Is it electrical equipment etc, or health & safety of food preparation. With reference both this and your previous post the actual earthing will depend upon the type of power source you are using. By its very nature the integrity of any earth arrangement and any certificate testing that earth for a mobile burger trailer will become invalid as soon as the trailer moves. The certificates validity will be directly proportional to the inspecting electricians competence in my opinion. If you have no test equipment then I assume you are not actually employed to test this anyway?

Doc H. 

 
I'd have to refresh by re-reading that section of the Regs .   Along with Fairgrounds I tended to skimp over mobile vehicles.

What do you do ?  Licensing for the councli or something ? 

Edit :-   Ah  just re-read the OP  .   You say trailers.   Are you talking about hospital / rest home   food trollies  or vans with engines etc.

 
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Think you're right Ducky , its yer average burger/ hot dog van I guess .

I'd still need to check the BGB before answering . 

Do we have a Burger Van specialist on the Forum ?   

Edit :-   Just took a quick scan of Section 717 .     May I suggest, Max,  that you and your collegues also read it .

             If there is a genuine, current certificate with the van then , as with an MOT ,I suppose you have to accept it .  You can't check

             the van out  without being aware of Section 717 of  BS 7671   The IEE  Wiring Regulations .

First thing I noticed was you plug into a PME supply  excet under conditions . 

Read on .

 
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BRB says 300ma stype rcd, exposed conductive parts need bonded on pg291 BRB.

BRB in the van and wee man needs bedtime story Tonight it's chapter 44 protection against voltage disturbances and electromagnetic disturbances.

:)

 
Evans Electric said:
.

First thing I noticed was you plug into a PME supply  excet under conditions . 
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You confused me there so I had to go and have a read.

you do NOT use the earthing facility of a PME supply EXCEPT when it's continuously under the supervision of a skilled person OR the suitability of the means of earthing has been determined before the connection is made.

 
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[quote name="Evans Electric"

First thing I noticed was you plug into a PME supply excet under conditions .

Read on .

Nice bit of reverse pscycology there Deke, made Dave read it at least!!!

 
MAX, from your point of view, a cert is a cert, but a bit like an MOT it's onle really valid the day it is issued. What it sounds like you need is an electrical traing course so that you can understand the difference between electrical supplies, generators etc etc. Going to be a bit diffcult to achieve on a few postings on this forum. I would go by a set of regs, read the relevent sections, and get hold of the Guidance notes for earthing. Give those a good read, then post any questions you have about anything you don't quite understand.

 
My day job is council EHO - but am self funding evening classes at a local college of FE to enable me to understand and hopefully appreciate the complexity of electrical supply, installation and testing. ( I have achieved a level 2 C & G 2365 and  am working towrds the level 3  C&G 2365 at the same college ( 2 year course)  and I hope to have 17th or 18th Edition by 2016 if I pass my finals .....I  then need 2364 and 2565 C &G if need to test and inspect etc etc etc ) and will need NVQ level 3 ( rare as rocking horse etc at my age to get the gold standard JIB after passing the AM2 day in a bay test. )

My query was based on fact that most of the mobile hot food burger trailers have a generator feeding power to appliances to the trailer and we all assume everything is honky dory as we see the rcd on the vehicle and rarely see a test cert and when we do it usualy states TNCS supply and we look at this and assume thats Ok then - my fear is that its not OK after studying on the above courses and these fears may come back to bite me.

 
If you are not the person who has inspected or issued the certificate then nothing can come back and bite you. Surely it will be whoever has signed the declaration on the electrical certificate who is liable if the electrics could be proved to have been unsafe at the time of the inspection.  You are not being employed to verify the electrical safety of the installation so it is not your problem.

Doc H.

 
Tell me about - when I joined the course I was old (49) and told  that the course would make me qualified spark- the lecturers failed/ forgot / (wanted the money) -to mention  the 17th edition, C& G 2394 and C&G 2395 , the NVQ portfolio , the day in the bay AM2 , the JIB card and the list goes on and on- would have been cheaper getting a private pilots licence.

I am doing the course because electricity fascinates me( I remember getting shocks as a child from a fridge next to an unbonded sink in my Antys flat - always wanted to know how this could occur ) and I like a challenge . Also If I need to flee the country  I have a skill/ trade which I can take with me / and as my daughter is only 4 I  will need to keep working and I was told that people/ business's always need competent sparks ( which is what I aim to be) and so I hope to keep working and find the prospect of sitting in front of a tv all day once I retire as not for me.

 
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Doc Hudson said:
If you are not the person who has inspected or issued the certificate then nothing can come back and bite you. Surely it will be whoever has signed the declaration on the electrical certificate who is liable if the electrics could be proved to have been unsafe at the time of the inspection.  You are not being employed to verify the electrical safety of the installation so it is not your problem.

Doc H.
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I was going to say something similar.

But my wording would be along the lines of, if they have an electrical certificate, just accept it and move on. Stop trying to make life harder than it needs to be for folk just trying to earn an honest living.

 
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Surely any certificate supplied is an inspection only of the wiring with insulation resistance  & RCD test results only. All other results vary on the supply, generator and ground conditions, all of which can & do change.

 
as above, your pretty limited in what I&T you can actually do. as soon as you unplug it from the supply your testing from then all live testing results are invalid, although the RCD times probably wont change

in addition, if they are running from a small generator, chances are its a floating earth and the RCD wont trip...

 
Max6979 said:
I and other collegues routinely inspect hot burger trailers and we are somtimes shown documentation( EICReports) showing that it has satisfactory earthing arrangements- how can we be certain that the certificate is valid and what should we be looking for which might indicate that there isnt adequate earthing ( we rely on visual checks only and none of us have any testing equipment)?

I apologise now if a) you all shout at me for asking a question which is covered by the On site guide b) rely on more experienced engineers to base an opinion and c) I appear gormless but I thought that this forum may provide guidance and help with an issue which sometimes worries me and which I have not yet resolved in my own mind. Thanks
Click to expand...
The mobile units I have worked on and wired that rely on a genny for power use electrical separation as the protective measure, therefore there won't be an earthing arrangement as such. Most of the ones I have tested have relied on ES also. With regards to ES as a protective measure, some of the things you'd need to ensure (include but are not limited to) are that all class 1 accessories and the metal frame of the unit are all bonded together, the protective devices are all double pole and that the generator and supplying cable are suitable for use (no bond between the frame and a live conductor, not V-0-V configuration etc...).

As Andy above has already pointed out, an RCD is next to useless on such a system and I'd be surprised if one was installed if the trailer is only ever going to be supplied by a genny, therefore an assumption can't be made that the trailer is safe just because it has an RCD fitted. You'd also need to ensure that the installation was already under the supervision of a skilled or instructed person. As an example, one of my friends dads owns three mobile burger vans, each one of them I have rewired, and each installation I am continually responsible for as the skilled person. They each get tested, rigourously, on an annual basis, and any alterations (if any) would be made by me and me alone.

If the trailer's supply is a rodded genny or supplied from a TN system, therefore allowing for ADS as a protective measure, well, that's a whole different ball game :D We then delve into the dark depths of 'how to make a good TT system' lol (regarding referencing eaths at the genny [technically not a TT system]). This is another conversation entirely. ProDave has also already covered where the trailer is supplied via PME.

 
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