More Conditon Report Questions

[Dairyspark]

Hi guys, following on rom my previous post I have a few more questions about this type of job, if you wouldn't mind sharing your knowledge and expertise.

1. Estimated age of installation: is there anywhere I can get a rough guideline on how old installations are by just looking, no paperwork was available and no dates on the CU so I guessed but it was probably way off lol

2. Price: a wee bit of guidance on this would be helpful, do you charge a set price for the report or do you just charge an hourly rate, I'm not looking for exact prices just a bit of help

Thanks in advance

 

[Murdoch]

Hi guys, following on rom my previous post I have a few more questions about this type of job, if you wouldn't mind sharing your knowledge and expertise.

1. Estimated age of installation: is there anywhere I can get a rough guideline on how old installations are by just looking, no paperwork was available and no dates on the CU so I guessed but it was probably way off lol

2. Price: a wee bit of guidance on this would be helpful, do you charge a set price for the report or do you just charge an hourly rate, I'm not looking for exact prices just a bit of help

Thanks in advance

Point 1 - by using knowledge of cabling "usually"coupled with the make and model of fuseboard

Point 2 - There are people doing EICR's for little or nothing - YOU have to decide on what you want to do BUT my minimum charge is 1/2 rate for even the smallest flat, 1 day for a house.  You need to remember that its not just about a wander round, but often getting keys and returning them, doing the certificate "properly" and the associated admin. I do not price EICR's to get the remedial work, I price EICR's to cover my standard rates.

 

[Sidewinder]

If you're doing a 100% with investigations which you would have to if there are no records to be compliant with the requirements of EAWR, to ensure that it is safe to even work on the installation to undertake the I&T, then you are looking at 1hr per cct, plus 1 hr per db, plus reporting.

As Murdoch, I don't price the inspection work to get the remedials, TBH, I don't want the remedials, they physically hurt too much.

I always go for a look at the property first, wander around, then I have a good idea of what is need.

You also need to understand why they need the report.

Then you need to look at the time you think it is going to take, and for older installs you might need more office time to verify if the install was compliant when it was constructed as that could be the difference between a C2 & a C3.

As far as aging installs go, it's experience, wire, accessories, db, and knowing the older versions of the regs.

It is generally accepted that someone doing EICR work must have a greater and more in depth understanding of the regulations, including an historic one, and the construction techniques than that which is required for an installer, or someone simply undertaking initial verification.

You also must bear in mind that there may be latent defects on the existing installation that could easily cause danger, possibly even be fatal to the inspector/tester.

 

[M107]

Im sure the 2006 part p doc had some cable types & dates of use.

Ask the property owner if they know anything about the installation, you may find they've lived there for ever and a day.

As a guide:

Flat twin no cpc 1960's

VRI/TRS 1960's

Lead sheath 1930/40's

Cloth covered rubber singles 1930's usually found in nice wood trunking.

I'm sure older forum members will be able to expand on these dates.

Pricing well that is up to you, for me the minimum is £190.

 

[ProDave]

I just charge per hour spent on the job at my normal hourly rate, plus the time at home to prepare the certificate.

Most of the eicr's I do are for rental properties, or a property sale.

You can usually tell a LOT just by looking in the CU.  If it's a rats nest, then chances are the install has been messed with and you are likely to find all sorts of problems.  If it's neat and tidy with all wires dressed perfectly then you can tell it was the work of a craftsman and nobody has messed with it, and you are far less likely to find any problems.

Don't assume because it's old that it will have problems, any more than assume it's a recent install so it will be fine.

 

[Phoenix]

To add to what M107 put:

Lead sheathed pre-1947

Green only cpc sleeving pre 1977

White as L2 conductor Pre 1964

No CPC in lighting Pre 1966

Volt operated ELCBs pre 85

Double pole fusing pre mid 50's

Use of conduit/trunk as cpc - fell out of favor in the 80s

Brown wylex boards = pre 80's. white/ivory boards = 80's / 90's

Imperial cable sizes = pre 1970's

2.5/1 twin and earth 1971-1981

Metal hand rails, roof access ladders etc bonded - over zealous application of 15th edition in 1980's

Overdoing it on RCBOs in commericial installs (all circuits on rcbos, even those run surface to fixed equipment) - over zealous application of 17th edition in 2008-2010

Wylex NB/HB range - late 80s

Main switch / RCD split consumer units - 1990s

Breakers to BS3871 = up till about 94/95

Breakers to BSEN 60898 - from about 92/93

 

[steptoe]

I never do 100%

What happens if I miss that socket in the loft for a TV amp that was never used, 

Or the one that is now behind the built in wardrobes,?

Etc. 

 

[ProDave]

Where does it say you ever have to do 100%?

I am guided by what I find.  If it's the nice neat install that has never been messed with and everything I inspect is in good order then one socket and one switch per room is plenty.  If the first one you open up is a rats nest with no earth sleeving then agreed 100% or close to would be in order.

 

[Andy™]

Where does it say you ever have to do 100%?

he's referring to the report, and not putting '100%', since what he believes to be 100% (i.e everything) might not really have been everything and something dangerous but hidden could have been missed

 

[Sidewinder]

See 621.1, GN3 para 3.8.3, HSR25 & EAWR89.

It is not an explicit requirement, it is implied.

How can you ensure that an installation is safe for continued use if you don't know the extent of the installation.

You can't.

 

[Lurch]

I've read guidance from all over the place regarding any degree of sampling up to 100%. I generally aim to do 100% on a first visit (within reason, I.E. I'm not going to pull out wardrobes and crawl around the loft etc) but will always attempt to identify every circuit in the CU/DB and at least attempt to trace enough of it that I can perform the required tests and be able to label the circuit with reasonable accuracy.

 

[Murdoch]

100% of the circuits and 20% of the accessories is realistic - which still means you have to "map" the premises and work out which is on every circuit (within reason).....

 

[Essex1]

Bloody hell I have almost scoobed every post.  Good advice here.

 

[Dairyspark]

There is some great advice here, this is what I like about this forum, for someone like myself who is not long out of college, I can gain good knowledge from more experienced fellows like yourselves, thanks for all your inputs so far

 

[Essex1]

I would suggest you have someone shadow you for a while doing periodic inspections.  It is quite unique and requires some knowledge only gained with experience.

 

[Phoenix]

Follow your instinct....

1) look closely at thinking that may not have been by an electrician, Intruder alarm spurs, door access spurs, air con, heating wiring, outside lighting

2) If you find something installed incorrectly in one part of the building, the other instances might be the same

3) Suspended ceilings hide a multitude of sins

4) An earth leakage clamp (see megger mark) gives a rough idea of what insulation values might be if you cant isolate

5) Old switch gear requires care. Often very little secondary shrouding to live parts and may contain asbestos

 

[Dairyspark]

Sadly Essex1 I don't have anyone to shadow me, my supposed tradesman is as much use as a chocolate teapot so I'm kinda tackling this on my own, testing the waters to see how much I can actually do on my own

 

[Blubberman]

In the EXTENT AND LIMITATIONS OF INSPECTION AND TESTING (Section D of the report), I put 25% of the installation in accordance with item 3.8.2 of Guidance Note 3. That is full testing and confirmation of circuits plus a random sample of items inspected.

I charge the work as a reduced EICR to let the client know that it's not a full inspection and charge £85. That's around 3 hours on site and an hour to write it up.

One the other things to look out for to assess the age of wiring - look out for dark green sleeving, this was prevalent in the 1970s before green/yellow was introduced, two-core twisted cables to lighting drops - varnished cotten type -50s, plastic type - 60s.