Need Urgent Help

[Dasuyrus]

My Nephew moved house and had no Heating or power in the house when we walked through the door and the RCB when put back was constantly tripping after 20mins. From watching him work there seemed to be and earth fault leak in one leg of the ring, where a water leak was previously found months before.

The Landlords Electrician who is his Cousin came and did some work and it is in a right mess

I have many questions but as he is coming back tomorrow I need the answer pretty quick so if break any forum rules then I am sorry.

Does a NICEIC badge have to be displayed at all time or at least shown before an electrician starts work. OFC it can be asked for but I thought it had to be on show somewhere.

If work i.e. all Sockets disconnected to they need to all be retested i.e. continuity and insulation? As with a rewire as this is basically the same just used old cable still with maybe all he will change is 1 leg of the ring which will go outside?

Do these have to be recorded i.e. written down for a certificate?

How safe is a Radial circuit for sockets?

Can a Ring main be taken outside? Not just for a single socket or for shed or something?

This “electrician” wants to take 1 leg of the only internal ring main outside from one side around the front of the house and back in again near the other side. Using armour trunking or whatever is needed because he can’t get under the floor boards as there is laminate floor.

Should a temporary fix put with i.e. the cable over the ceiling as in pictures as he has laid a cable stuck with gaffer tape stuck to ceiling and walls to run then upstairs and to the socket to where the leg that is faulty?

This same electrician previously installed an Electric fire with a spur off the ring only using 1.5mm cable. I have told him this is not sufficient but it is still 1.5mm and I heard him tell the landlord it will be sufficient for the fire?

Other pictures below are what he left after he rushed out the house when so called finished for the day Until he comes back after Sunday as he did not seem to want to complete the job that was required. I have more pictures but think enough here.

 

[Evans Electric]

Does a NICEIC badge have to be displayed at all time or at least shown before an electrician starts work. OFC it can be asked for but I thought it had to be on show somewhere.

If work i.e. all Sockets disconnected to they need to all be retested i.e. continuity and insulation? As with a rewire as this is basically the same just used old cable still with maybe all he will change is 1 leg of the ring which will go outside?

Do these have to be recorded i.e. written down for a certificate?

How safe is a Radial circuit for sockets?

Can a Ring main be taken outside? Not just for a single socket or for shed or something?

This “electrician” wants to take 1 leg of the only internal ring main outside from one side around the front of the house and back in again near the other side. Using armour trunking or whatever is needed because he can’t get under the floor boards as there is laminate floor.

Should a temporary fix put with i.e. the cable over the ceiling as in pictures as he has laid a cable stuck with gaffer tape stuck to ceiling and walls to run then upstairs and to the socket to where the leg that is faulty?

This same electrician previously installed an Electric fire with a spur off the ring only using 1.5mm cable. I have told him this is not sufficient but it is still 1.5mm and I heard him tell the landlord it will be sufficient for the fire?

1)    He doesnt need to display an NICEIC badge....you can always ask to see his card. (But he doesn't have to be a member )  

2)   Its not a new circuit but he has to test it so may as well issue cert . 

3)  Radial circuits are as safe as anything else . 

4)   Running a cable outside is fine in my book . There's obviously a reason  for it.

5)  The "Gaffer Tape Special"  I'd say he just trying to prove he's doing the right thing when he runs outside.    Its obviously a temporary fix.

6)   If the guy fitted a Spur unit with a 13A fuse  then 1.5 mm is  OK .  

 

[Evans Electric]

Other pictures below are what he left after he rushed out the house when so called finished for the day Until he comes back after Sunday as he did not seem to want to complete the job that was required. I have more pictures but think enough here.

It looks like he's tried to get the ring main working until he gets back ,  I take it someone is living there?  

He's left that socket more or less safe ....I suppose we could all say he should have fitted a blank plate  ....I'd say he was drafted in from having a million other things to do ...so when he  "So called finished for the day"   perhaps he realised he had his own life to lead and went home .

Speaking for myself , I wouldn't have bothered with temporary cable "Gaffer Taped"  to be honest ...  I'd have fitted a 20A  MCB  and said don't plug too much in until next week. 

He's obviously traced a fault in that  cable ...its inaccessible ...the only option is running one outside. 

 

[Evans Electric]

When you say "Its in a right mess "     is that just  a socket front removed with ends taped up ...and a temporary cable run upstairs.  ?    

If thats all it is then you're lucky .  

 

[Doc Hudson]

DIY electrical work is perfectly legal in the UK.

There is no obligation for an electrician to be a member of any trade body.

Therefore there is no obligation for them to display any badges cards or signage of any sort.

However there are legal obligation to not imply you are something that you are not. i.e. displaying membership logos to any trade body that you are not entitled to display.

BS7671 wiring regulations are just guidance for good practice, but anyone claiming to be a professional electrician should be following and complying with the current edition of BS7671.

BS7671 requires all work to be correctly designed, installed, tested and documented on appropriate certificates. But any certificates issued will be given to the person ordering and paying for the work, which is not necessarily the person living at a property if it is rented.

All circuits must be correctly fused with appropriate sized cable. It is the fusing that defines the cable size.

A correctly fused radial circuit can be safer that a correctly fused ring circuit during some fault conditions.

Any circuit can be wired indoors or outdoors providing the installation methods and cable selection are appropriate for the installed environment.

Doc H.

 

[Dasuyrus]

Thanks for reply

1)    He doesn't need to display an NICEIC badge....you can always ask to see his card. (But he doesn't have to be a member )

So why does it state on rental properties in every thing I have seen written given by the agent they must be a member of the NIECIC to do the work ?

So it is they can do the work but if they are not a member they should not be doing the work as conditions of the tenancy for rental properties is that they must be. Guess I answered that myself now   So that is sorted

2)   Its not a new circuit but he has to test it so may as well issue cert . 

I know its not a new circuit but still the same principle is what I meant to try and put across. Any new work also needs a certificate does it not ?  so when outside leg is done it will need to be insualted tested? So if he does not use his mega to test the circuit insulation can he still produce a certificate or not and does he not have to record these measurement somewhere to do so ? as he has never had his mega with him.

3)  Radial circuits are as safe as anything else 

That is what I thought so he could have left the leg going across the ceiling  and left it as a radial circuit for a day or so ?

4)   Running a cable outside is fine in my book . There's obviously a reason  for it.

Yes I know this is fine and ok with going outside for a separate circuit but is it OK if it is part of the only Ring circuit in the house? as if it has issues in the future then no power no heating again? Surely it is not wise to do so?

6)   If the guy fitted a Spur unit with a 13A fuse  then 1.5 mm is  OK

I will have to check if it is but the Electric fire was only plugged in to a socket and I did not see a spur unit

The other pictures did not load for some reason so here they are again. The taped up picture those are live wires, and is nothing to do with the leg that needs to be replaced as it is at another socket in the bedroom which I don't have a picture for but that had bare wires on it with no tape, but I knew from listening that it was the leg that was to be replaced but he never stated to the tenant any of that. A pet could get a nasty shock if it peed on that as looking at the tape not very secure tbh. and they have 2 dogs in the house

"perhaps he realised he had his own life to lead and went home"  I know you mean this as a joke but tbh not funny. I don't give a monkey what he is doing he was employed to do a job and frankly not a very good one,  These people moved in Wednesday no heating no power due to a water leak they knew about that had caused this why should I care what he has to do. I could tell he did not want to be there everyday he has been but no heating no power for 3 nights.

I know that this same electrician has left bare wires that were live when they moved in as I got them tested by a different electrician that the agency sent and had a plate cover over it. Also they only moved in on the Wednesday and nothing was working due to an insulation fault that he had failed to find until Saturday seems along time to me to get this sorted from someone is supposed to be a competent electrician . Leaving the sockets just hanging surely also wrong as they don't wish to use it like for the Fridge Freezer which what that plug is supposed to be for. The Black plug is for the boiler which should be on a fused spur switch? Which it was I know it was for testing but he could have put it back to the fused spur. Even if he is to give certificate to the landlord surely the tenant has that right to a copy or not? as they have not had the PIR electrical certificate or whatever it now called issued from the landlord.

doh still not added pics here is a share link I ant edit either or cant see where to

https://photos.app.goo.gl/9XSCGP3Ml2FGxjnx2

 

[ProDave]

There is no requirement to be a member of any scheme to di this sort of fault finding and repair job. Even if there was it would be wrong for the letting agent to speciify NICEIC as there are several other scemes an electrician can join instead. So it is the letting agent that has got it wrong.

Leave the guy to get on with the job. It is obvious he has found a section of the ring main that is faulty. He has hooked up a temporary feed to ensure you have power over the weekend before he can get back. He now has a choice of trash the laminate flooring to repair the cable under the floor, or run a new cable outside. He might well be discussing the options with the landlord first (I certainly would).   I feel sure one way or another he will get it all sorted properly for you and you have no need to worry.

Of course this thread shows why it would be a good idea to require an EICR before the start of a tenancy (it is already a requirement in Scotland). This fault would then have been found and fixed while the house was empty before you moved in.  In Scotland the landlord has to provide a copy of the EICR to the tenant as part of the tenants information pack.

 

[Sidewinder]

ProDave,

The letting agent can specify who they like.

It is only the Public Sector that cannot specify a certain brand.

 

[Dasuyrus]

When you say "Its in a right mess "     is that just  a socket front removed with ends taped up ...and a temporary cable run upstairs.  ?    

If thats all it is then you're lucky .  

There is more but the pictures never came up so try the shared link here https://photos.app.goo.gl/oopsuRJv73ILBGth2

These are after he fixed some other things but don't have those pictures yet from my nephew.

 

[Dasuyrus]

He now has a choice of trash the laminate flooring to repair the cable under the floor, or run a new cable outside. He might well be discussing the options with the landlord first (I certainly would).

Not that hard to move some of the laminate floor I have done this and pretty easy straight forward thing to do but you certainly don't need to trash it, but it would depend on which way the joists go I guess whether it is worth it or not and also fine to discuss with the landlord that is not what I was asking clarification and there is such a thing as a mobile phone to do this as it is his cousin after all.

I understand that you don't have to be registered with anyone to the work but with Private sector and rental properties they have to use registered Electrician so most choose NICEIC. Presume as it helps cover the agents and landlord's backside if anything goes wrong and also the tenant is kept happy as they know that a competent person is doing the work and the tenant should therefore not be messing with any electrics. As who know what would happen otherwise inside a rented property. I will ask for his card today and then see what action needs to be done with the maintenance agency as they state he needs it. 

You say leave him to it. It takes 3 days to find a problem in 1 simple ring circuit with not that many sockets in? That 1 reason also why we worry as left in a cold unusable house for the tenants as soon as they move in for 3 days. If it is like this at the start of there tenancy hate to think what it may be like during it.

All of our family also worry because of the other things that have been mentioned i.e. the lose sockets, Live wires left bare, that he has left it is just not about 1 thing. I am leaving to his job am only asking about our concerns. I will wait until he has finished and then will again look at his work and take it from there. I trained as electrical and electronic engineer but I never did household electrics as a job. I was a design, installation and testing with British rail and was more industry with Austin Rover back in the day  but if I did these electrics I would not have left it in the condition he has when he only did 3 hours work then left. He had plenty of time to put the sockets back safe and explain what he had done properly to the tenant. Oh BTW also no smoke alarm.

I have read somewhere it was going to be an EICR last year in spring 2017 so I take it that never happened . A PIR is every 10 years or 5 years or change of tenancy from what I have also just read and we don't have one. "Landlords are required to provide electrical installation certificates to show new equipment is safe, but there is no legal requirement to have it regularly inspected." so there was also no cert for the newly installed fireplace. Guess a lot of this will have to raised with the Landlord / Maintenance agency instead. My issues is that a lot of things have not been done correctly prior to the Let and also after.

Thanks for help but I think I have my course of action for today to do on this after reading stuff here and on the gov websites and alike. 

 

[binky]

If the work had been done before the tennants had moved in, it would be an awful lot easier and quicker, so 3 hours with an unfamiliar system isn't excessive. However it's also not difficult to break a faulty ring and leave some of it working at least, unless there are multiple faults and assuming fault isn't linked to a hidden junction box under floor that has had multiple sockets spurred off from. Sounds like the guy you had in to fix is really too busy elsewhere to give a quick service and is probably regretting getting involved at all.  :^O

 

[Sidewinder]

...

I understand that you don't have to be registered with anyone to the work but with Private sector and rental properties they have to use registered Electrician so most choose NICEIC. Presume as it helps cover the agents and landlord's backside if anything goes wrong and also the tenant is kept happy as they know that a competent person is doing the work and the tenant should therefore not be messing with any electrics. As who know what would happen otherwise inside a rented property. I will ask for his card today and then see what action needs to be done with the maintenance agency as they state he needs it. 

...

Not strictly true on many counts unfortunately for those of us "in the business".

The requirement for domestic & rental properties under building regulations is covered by the explanatory document covering Part P of the building regulations.

Even though a rental property is a dwelling, as it is run as part of a business, it could easily be argued that EAWR applies, and thus the overarching requirement of competence of "operative" is an absolute requirement.

As far as using the NICEIC and getting a competent person to the property to do the work, unfortunately this is also a false assumption.

Not all persons working under the NICEIC Approved Contractor scheme where the Qualified Supervisor model is in place.

It is entirely possible that under the NICEIC scheme the person attending the premises will not be qualified what so ever, and that is acceptable under the rules of the scheme.

I hasten to add, this scenario cannot occur with one person contractors as the one person needs to meet all the requirements, where as in a large company different people hold different roles, and as a result the actual operatives do not need to be qualified electricians, or as I have said be qualified or competent at all.

 

[Murdoch]

Irrespective of who the sparky is a member of, the fact that he is related to the Landlord is far more important........ I suspect they will agree on everything 100% - so complain at your peril ................ he might serve notice on you

All you can do is await the completion of said works and then commission your own EICR for your own piece of mind

 

[Evans Electric]

Even though a rental property is a dwelling, as it is run as part of a business, it could easily be argued that EAWR applies, and thus the overarching requirement of competence of "operative" is an absolute requirement.

I think I read this a few days ago ....  under EAWR   and some  some act or other ,  a rented property should be checked prior to renting out  and maintained during the rental period ....    this is for England / Wales  I'll try to find it .  

 

[Murdoch]

I think I read this a few days ago ....  under EAWR   and some  some act or other ,  a rented property should be checked prior to renting out  and maintained during the rental period ....    this is for England / Wales  I'll try to find it .  

I think you will struggle to find anything that states the electrics should be checked properly before renting out .....

 

[Evans Electric]

It was in an article ...may have been a recommendation  but definitely quoted EAWR.  and the 1982 Act   ( Not sure about the date) 

 

[Dasuyrus]

If the work had been done before the tennants had moved in, it would be an awful lot easier and quicker, so 3 hours with an unfamiliar system isn't excessive. However it's also not difficult to break a faulty ring and leave some of it working at least, unless there are multiple faults and assuming fault isn't linked to a hidden junction box under floor that has had multiple sockets spurred off from. Sounds like the guy you had in to fix is really too busy elsewhere to give a quick service and is probably regretting getting involved at all.  :^O

He maybe busy else where but as a tenant and a new one that has just moved in the PIR should have been issued. With this fault it could not have been. Also as this property has been 100% passed to the maintenance agency then he has a chance to fix this problem if not then we can go back and ask for someone else. As a new tenant the property should have been checked by the landlord and a PIR issued none given.

Irrespective of who the sparky is a member of, the fact that he is related to the Landlord is far more important........ I suspect they will agree on everything 100% - so complain at your peril ................ he might serve notice on you

They can't evict if there is no case for the landlord to do so, and can be classed as harassment if done so. 

All you can do is await the completion of said works and then commission your own EICR for your own piece of mind

Already going to do this whatever happens.

He never turned up today as he promised

 

[Murdoch]

They can't evict if there is no case for the landlord to do so, and can be classed as harassment if done so.

They can simply wait until the end of the agreement and then serve notice is my understanding ..... seen it done a few times to get rid of irrational tenants

 

[ProDave]

I think you will struggle to find anything that states the electrics should be checked properly before renting out .....

I am sure I read in England, some councils require that, others don't.

 

[Doc Hudson]

I think you will struggle to find anything that states the electrics should be checked properly before renting out .....

Agreed, you will find guidance suggesting it is wise and sensible to check before a change of occupancy. But there is no legal obligation to have to do it at all.

Doc H