Neutral Wire

[jaybon]

Hi

I’m thinking about trying to start a small business that outsources installing some designer switches in homes.  I've had an electrician try, but came up with problems with it, as the switch we tried it on in my home doesn't have a neutral wire – and the new switches requires it.

Basically I think I can’t do this as easily/cheapily as I thought, and hence this isn’t a valid venture, but, I’m trying to understand this issue.   My question for you guys is, how difficult is it to get a neutral to a switch that doesn’t have one?   Based on my research, I think every home has a neutral, just not all switches will have it.  So a neutral can be taken and brought to the switch, but, how much work does this usually involve?  I’m trying to gauge whether holes need to be knocked in walls etc (which is something I definitely don’t want to get involved in) ?   Would most (of the older) houses be able to get a neutral wire without requiring this?

Also, if 2 switches control the same circuit/light, if a neutral is brought to one side, does this mean the other will need the neutral as well..?

I wanted to try and see where this venture took me, but based on the experience of doing my flat, I think I’d bite off more than I can chew L

Thanks for any help/advise you can give.

Jay

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Basic electrical theory... A switch only needs a permanent live IN and a switched live OUT..

NO neutral required:-

Stop and think of the circuit you are looking at:-

A supply (LIVE) from a fuse box-------->{wire out to one side of a switch}

{permanent supply wire IN from fuse box}----->[ switch ]-------->{switched live OUT from switch to load}

{switched live from switch}-------->[ LOAD / Lamp ] ---------->{wire back to supply to complete circuit}

{neutral wire from load}--------->Supply (Neutral) back at fuse box.

NOW:-

If the building construction means it is easier to loop the cables in & out via the switch...

then the switch may have a neutral terminated in the back box.. (but not connected to the switch)

Some lights are wired looped at the switch.. others loped at the light... others in singles no loops at all..

and there may be a combination of any or all of the above on any single installation.

In most cases it will be very messy and time consuming getting new neutral wires to switches that don't have them!

also..

WHAT YOU MUST NEVER DO..

is take a neutral from another circuit...

This causes two fuses to energies a single section of cable.  dangerous and very bad practice!!!! 

in a nutshell I think your idea is a non starter!

 I've had an electrician try, but came up with problems with it,

I am surprised your "electrician" couldn't explain this to you....  ?????

As it is very very basic and standard throughout the electrical industry for donkeys years!

:C

 

[M107]

in a nutshell I think your idea is a non starter!

Unless you go down the Danlers route & use a rechargable battery to throw a 9v relay..........not that I've had one apart but I assume thats what the battery is doing.

Whats different about your designer switches?

Maybe we can offer some help/optional ideas.

 

[jaybon]

Thanks very much for your reply!

I should've caveated that I realize this is pretty basic stuff, but I don't have a background in this at all, and trying to come up to speed quickly... well, I'd need to get the right resources to study which I haven't.  So thanks taking the time to explain the basics   My electrician was frankly less then helpful with the explanation.

So it's as I suspected, that getting a neutral to a switch that doesn't, will not be a trivial task.

I don't think there's anything different about my switches, simply the fact they require a neutral to work.

Thanks guys

 

[Andy™]

I don't think there's anything different about my switches, simply the fact they require a neutral to work.

Thanks guys

in which case, they are massively different, and unless they are spec'd at the start of a job, wont be able to be fitted later without major alterations

 

[jaybon]

Oops- browser crashed - dupe.

 

[Barx]

generally, you cannot get extra cable down to switches with major work.

 

[Evans Electric]

What exactly is  a "Designer switch " . You're obviously replacing a light switch ....with what ?  

 

[M107]

i see a dragons den episode on its way.

 

[Marvo]

Maybe the switches have some kind of neon or LED illumination/indication built in to them. I've come across some Gira switches in the past that needed a neutral and there's gradually more similar switches creeping into the market. Maybe it's time to start looping the supply through the switch boxes rather than through the ceiling rose as is the fashion in the UK.

 

[Andy™]

not really any need to change how its always been done and worked, just because someone has came up with a different switch that needs non-standard wiring at the switch for it to operate corretly

if he really wants to design / sell them, then he is going to have to change the design since there is a very limited number of properties what it could be installed in

 

[steptoe]

not really any need to change how its always been done and worked, just because someone has came up with a different switch that needs non-standard wiring at the switch for it to operate corretly

if he really wants to design / sell them, then he is going to have to change the design since there is a very limited number of properties what it could be installed in

:slap

exactly the attitude that destroyed our motorcycle and car manufacturing industry

and the same reason most people are still insistent on ring finals for sockets

I understand where you are coming from Andy, but sometimes its good to modernise.

 

[ProDave]

Maybe the switches have some kind of neon or LED illumination/indication built in to them. I've come across some Gira switches in the past that needed a neutral and there's gradually more similar switches creeping into the market. Maybe it's time to start looping the supply through the switch boxes rather than through the ceiling rose as is the fashion in the UK.

A neon indicator works connected to E, and the leakage so caused is microamps. Not that I would ever admit to doing that. :coat :yellow card  

On new builds I always loop at switch, apart from anything else, more work at a nice working height, and less work on a stepladder holding your arms up in the air for a long time. And infinitely easier where downlights are involved.

 

[Andy™]

A neon indicator works connected to E, and the leakage so caused is microamps. Not that I would ever admit to doing that. :coat :yellow card

On new builds I always loop at switch, apart from anything else, more work at a nice working height, and less work on a stepladder holding your arms up in the air for a long time. And infinitely easier where downlights are involved.

i thought the neon was connected between L&SL, so it illuminated when the light is in the off position? if you do connect it to earth, do you need to sleeve it cream?

 

[ProDave]

i thought the neon was connected between L&SL, so it illuminated when the light is in the off position? if you do connect it to earth, do you need to sleeve it cream?

Loft light, where they want a neon to show the light is still turned on when the loft hatch is shut.

Not that I have ever done that using E for the neon. (cough)

 

[Marvo]

A neon indicator works connected to E, and the leakage so caused is microamps. Not that I would ever admit to doing that. :coat :yellow card

Well the earth is functional as well as protective so what's a couple of milliamps or microamps between friends? Most electronic power supplies happily put a milliamp or two of standing leakage down the CPC and often considerably more when surges are present so it's not surprising others are jumping onto the bandwagon..

 

[pewter]

I prefer to loop at the switch.

I also prefer 35mm boxes, radials and not rings for power, brown sauce not red ........,.,

High end designer lighting I have worked on is wired in cat 5 and the switches are given addresses and can be programmed to turn all sorts on and off.

 

[Evans Electric]

Still wondering what a "Designer Switch" is . :innocent

 

[Andy™]

Still wondering what a "Designer Switch" is . :innocent

a switch designed by a designer of nothing electrical

 

[Evans Electric]

A neon indicator works connected to E, and the leakage so caused is microamps. Not that I would ever admit to doing that. :coat :yellow card

On new builds I always loop at switch, apart from anything else, more work at a nice working height, and less work on a stepladder holding your arms up in the air for a long time. And infinitely easier where downlights are involved.

Same here , 25mm boxes , Wagos on the neuts .    As you say , started doing it as everyone  was having downlights,  didn't like losing the 3 plate connections behind one of the fittings TBH .

a switch designed by a designer of nothing electrical

You mean a device , on the wall , near a door for putting the lights on & off?