New Around Here With A Few Questions

[Sean1984]

Hi guys,

Firstly I hope this is the correct place to post this and I'm not breaking any rules in what I am asking - genuinely need some help and advice and there appears to be a wealth of knowledge around here.

I have been looking at sitting a course in domestic electrical installation, two of which I found are as follows-

tradeskills4u

coventrybuildingworkshop

both of these cost several thousand pounds but suggest they lead to you being a qualified domestic electrician -

Firstly - is this the case? or is there something more that would be required? what would my limitations be on what I could do with this training? where could I work? could I use this in a self employed format?

From what I have read to become a fully qualified spark you need to complete level 2/3 diploma / NVQ which requires working on site - how do you make the transition from domestic electrician to commerical - how do you get a job working on site to be able to evidence what is required to pass the diploma / NVQ?

I would like to learn multiple trades ie plastering, perhaps a similar course in domestic plumming and start my own buisness - is this feasible and is there any money in domestic work? What considerations would be required and how much could you realistically expect to make from this?

Also, how much should I anticipate on spending for equipment - I enjoy DIY so have quiet alot of tools (non specialist for any particular trade).

I should add that Im currently not in trade, my knowledge is limited to personal DIY projects but im not shy of putting in the hours and hard graft

I currently do a desk based job earning between 32 - 37k a year... 

Is there money to be made working domestically only? what considerations should I have at this point

I appreciate any replies, thanks for taking the time to read

Regards

Sean

 

[NozSpark]

Hi Sean,

I'm afraid, if you search the forum, that these "skills" providers are not looked upon as being very good value for money and that they also oversell the idea of what you may earn at the end of it all

If you are thinking that you're going to come out of one of these courses and start earning anywhere near your current salary then IMHO you are sadly mistaken

You'd be far better off doing some night courses at a local college

 

[Lurch]

My thoughts are you cannot become a multi-skilled tradesman doing courses at a local college. Experience is necessary, the qualifications are irrelevant/bonus.

There are too many people think they can do this and end up failing or just doing a piss poor job of it ripping customers off by being unintentional cowboys.

If you want to set up on your own and earn money doing it you need to know what you are doing and prove you can do it properly before thinking about charging customers for doing it.

 

[eodneil]

Hi Sean

Regardless of whether you want to work in Domestic, Commercial or Industrial, I would advise you do the correct qualifications and not any of these courses labelled Domestic Installer or Part P course. Here are the two options for what qualifications you need;

1. Level 3 NVQ in Electrotechnical Systems (2357). This is normally the route for which an Apprentice would take over 4 years. It can be completed by non apprentices too but they need to already be working in the trade as a trainee.
2. Level 2 & 3 Diplomas in Electrical Installations (2365)which is classroom based and then the NVQ 2357-44 portfolio assessments only which is completed on site, working in the trade.

I would suggest thinking about the financial side though because it will take you some time to work your way back to your current pay scale, trainees are on anything from 16K to 20K a year and an average full time electrician I believe around 30K. This obviously changes depending on the company you work for or whether you are self employed which you can't really put an average figure on. Guys on the forum can give you a better idea of what pay to expect once working in the industry.

Good luck

Neil

 

[Sean1984]

Appreciate the replies guys,

I guess my question is what is the first step then? It seems chicken & egg from what I read - how do you get taken on as a trainee if you have no experience / qualifications and on the other hand the courses described require you are working to complete?

I understand the sceptics of 20 day courses - my intention would not be to start charging anyone until I knew I was at a stage where that if justified- and as pointed out already, that comes with experience... what my initial thought was to complete one of these courses which would enable me to start working domestically and gain hands on experience and kick on from there - a friend done something similar with plastering, charging only for the goods required to complete the job and doing the labour for nothing as it was gaining him the experience... I'm a little unclear on what the limitations of these courses are and what the next step would be - presumably the NVQ / Diploma...??

With that in mind, how do these work - are these completed whilst being paid at all? and how long would it take to complete? At 32 years old I suppose the thought of sitting in a class room with a group of 18 year olds causes me to be slightly depressed! 

 

[Lurch]

a friend done something similar with plastering, charging only for the goods required to complete the job and doing the labour for nothing as it was gaining him the experience...

The difference being your mate gets it wrong and someone has a bumpy wall, you get it wrong and someone dies.

 

[Sidewinder]

If you are "earning" £32-37k pa PAYE, then you will need to be doing some serious graft to get this for the first perhaps 5 years if you go down this sort of retraining route.

You might turnover 40-50k, but to "earn" that sort of money you need to be well switched on, remember your turnover as SE, or 1 man Ltd. Co. is before any overheads, tools, test equipment, scheme membership, training, books, insurance, van fuel etc. etc.

If you want to "earn" say £40k, then you need to be hitting £80k+.

That is the "rule of thumb" for those employed by a larger business, in that they need to double their salary to be worthwhile employing.

A Ltd. Co. should be turning over circa £125k per head, to be successful long term.

 

[Evans Electric]

Appreciate the replies guys,

I guess my question is what is the first step then? It seems chicken & egg from what I read - how do you get taken on as a trainee if you have no experience / qualifications and on the other hand the courses described require you are working to complete?

I understand the sceptics of 20 day courses - my intention would not be to start charging anyone until I knew I was at a stage where that if justified- and as pointed out already, that comes with experience... what my initial thought was to complete one of these courses which would enable me to start working domestically and gain hands on experience and kick on from there - a friend done something similar with plastering, charging only for the goods required to complete the job and doing the labour for nothing as it was gaining him the experience... I'm a little unclear on what the limitations of these courses are and what the next step would be - presumably the NVQ / Diploma...??

With that in mind, how do these work - are these completed whilst being paid at all? and how long would it take to complete? At 32 years old I suppose the thought of sitting in a class room with a group of 18 year olds causes me to be slightly depressed! 

I think , Sean, at 32 it may be too late , financially more than anything else .    You could look at  kitchen / bathroom fitting if you really , really want to go into construction ,  no qualificatioins needed , sub out gas & electrics .  

Where are you in Brum  ?  I can PM something that may be of interest  if you REALLY want to enter the mad world of construction .  

 

[Sean1984]

I think , Sean, at 32 it may be too late , financially more than anything else .    You could look at  kitchen / bathroom fitting if you really , really want to go into construction ,  no qualificatioins needed , sub out gas & electrics .  

Where are you in Brum  ?  I can PM something that may be of interest  if you REALLY want to enter the mad world of construction .  

Thanks...

Actually in Wolverhampton 

Wouldnt kitchen and bathroom fitting still require pluming qualifications of some sort ?

 

[Lurch]

Wouldnt kitchen and bathroom fitting still require pluming qualifications of some sort ?

No qualifications required for plumbing work, although really without any experience in any of that I wouldn't recommend you just having a go at that either.

The gist is, experience is everything.

 

[Essex1]

Go for plumbing or brick laying. You will earn far far more than you will with electrics and qualifying a quarter of the time.

 

[sprocketflup]

I'll say one thing though Sean, it's refreshing to have someone come on here and ask these questions BEFORE shelling out obscene amounts of money on something unsuitable rather than after, you'd be surprised how many times we see that happen.

Best of luck to you, tho you've obviously got your head screwed on so you may not need it

 

[New Venture!]

Hi Sean. I started working for myself just over a year ago after many years as a commercial electrical engineer. Not been on the forum much for a few months as I've been working in Tenerife. Sounds great but basically it was out of financial necessity. I admire your drive and ambition but (for me anyway) the domestic side pays very poorly.

Re the courses you mention, sorry but I have to agree with the other guys. These intensive courses show you the basic theory and allow you to pass exams, but don't prepare you for the horrors of the 1950's house that has had years of "bodging" by various owners.

One area I am asked about is general handy person work, especially for elderly people. Would you consider something like that? I do some electrical work for a local handyman when necessary and he's doing much better than I am!

 

[Doc Hudson]

Appreciate the replies guys,

I guess my question is what is the first step then? It seems chicken & egg from what I read - how do you get taken on as a trainee if you have no experience / qualifications and on the other hand the courses described require you are working to complete?

I understand the sceptics of 20 day courses - my intention would not be to start charging anyone until I knew I was at a stage where that if justified- and as pointed out already, that comes with experience... what my initial thought was to complete one of these courses which would enable me to start working domestically and gain hands on experience and kick on from there - a friend done something similar with plastering, charging only for the goods required to complete the job and doing the labour for nothing as it was gaining him the experience... I'm a little unclear on what the limitations of these courses are and what the next step would be - presumably the NVQ / Diploma...??

With that in mind, how do these work - are these completed whilst being paid at all? and how long would it take to complete? At 32 years old I suppose the thought of sitting in a class room with a group of 18 year olds causes me to be slightly depressed! 

Have a read of this thread, http://talk.electricianforum.co.uk/topic/29439-just-qualified-and-need-help-please/ Then consider the following points. What actual qualifications does the course offer. What does the exam body recommend the course is intended for, Not what does the training company say it is for. Salesmen (the training providers) will often gloss over their products with a very Rosy appearance, claiming all singing and dancing offer you the world. How much research have you one into self employment. Get a few books and read up. They will give you realistic ideas about the pitfalls of over expectation of self employment. How many weeks in the year can you survive without any earnings? i.e. what savings reserves have you got.  Sickness, holidays, quiet periods, late payers can all leave you with many weeks or months of negligible or zero earnings.  These training courses are an investment of your time and money, just as with a lot of investments, you may get a good return, but you also could make a loss or just come out no better off than when you started. As an investment can you afford to make a loss or no gain? if you can then give it a go. If you have got to make a gain then hundreds of previous threads would suggest these are not a very reliable investment.

Doc H.

 

[thebight]

I think , Sean, at 32 it may be too late

It peeves me off when I see stuff like this. I'm on a course with lads that are +50, and my uncle didn't make the change until he was 52, and he's doing alright for himself.

Sean, don't listen to people that are negative. Take on board the constructive stuff about choosing the right course, and getting the relevant experience, but I've no idea how someone can comment on your financial position when they don't know you. If you have the drive and passion to get it done, and feel like you can hack it financially, then get it done and crack on mate. Life's too short to worry about shoulda, coulda, woulda. Before you know it you'll be 90 and on your death bed, and wishing you'd done it.

 

[binky]

I retrained at 42. I did have the advantage of having previuosly completed an apprenticeship in an electro-mechanical discipline and having spnet year working hands on in factories and machine shops, so had good hand skills in the first place. The retraining however was after spending at least a decade in a desk job. The hardest part of retraining was learning 'house bashing'. Working with other people was very useful and takling the small jobs first - all the stuff established contractors aren't interested in. Which brings me to the point made above about small maintanence jobs for the elderly and the like. This line of work can be quite good when starting up, provided you are charging enough. There is good demand for this sector, and the work makes a good introduction to domestic electrics.

 

[Evans Electric]

It peeves me off when I see stuff like this. I'm on a course with lads that are +50, and my uncle didn't make the change until he was 52, and he's doing alright for himself.

Sean, don't listen to people that are negative. Take on board the constructive stuff about choosing the right course, and getting the relevant experience, but I've no idea how someone can comment on your financial position when they don't know you. If you have the drive and passion to get it done, and feel like you can hack it financially, then get it done and crack on mate. Life's too short to worry about shoulda, coulda, woulda. Before you know it you'll be 90 and on your death bed, and wishing you'd done it.

Hi  The Bight  .   The reason I was  negative is , as Sean said himself, he didn't fancy going back to college with a load of 18 yr olds  for a start .   

But its the cost of courses I was thinking of more than anything .  I agree with you , if Sean wants to go for it , great !! 

But we 've all seen the cost of the private run teaching  schemes  where  the relevant courses  cost thousands of ££££s  .   Colleges  not cheap either . 

I'm much older than Sean and did not relish returning to college for the 17th Regs thing which was necessary for re-assessment ,  that cost me £555.00  as I'm self employed.

Everyone else on the course had it paid by employers , one guy the NHS, two guys non sparks ,worked for a hotel chain on maintenance , most of the others were apprentices so also paid for.  

I was trying to warn him that its not easy for a mature person who , I presume , also needs to be earning a living as he retrains for something else.   However , no qualifications are required to start up a kitchen / bathroom fitting business involving  plumbing , plastering , tiling , decorating , fitting units  , general carpentry etc  with the gas /elects subbed out .   

In fact no qualifications or experience is required to start up a building company ..................I'm saying theres easier options   .

We have a lad from the local college getting practical experience with us ,  he says , of a class of 25  he's the only one actually working with sparks and that none of the students have , or cannot get , jobs in the trade.

 

[sprocketflup]

In my college class of 12 I'm the only one who has done anything electrical. Yet all those 12 (and the next 12, and the previous 12) were sold the course and told by the college that there was loads of work out there, and the college would even help with finding work for everyone.

There wasn't, and they didn't. And every 3 months a new enrolment happens, and a load more folk pay a hefty amount of money for a course that is going to be no use to them.

If that sounds negative, youre right, it is.

 

[thebight]

Fair comments the both of you (Evans & sprocket) - it's not easy and it's not cheap. After re-reading this thread I'm starting to get the impression the OP is keen on doing the 5ww course and seems to be trying to justify it, so perhaps in retrospect I was jumping the gun.

However, as for work being out there, I know it's out there...... if you want it bad enough. How many on your courses are actually trying for work (with a modicum of effort) and how many are just saying there's no work because that one CV they sent didn't get a phonecall back? I think (and this is nothing more than an opinion) that a good few folks at my college aren't happy with life so use the 'I'm at college to turn my life around' to feel better about themselves. The same people have never stopped moaning about the course content/delivery from day one, and I await with mild anticipation to see how many of them actually sign up for the L3. I'm not saying those people don't deserve to be on the course, or that I'm better than them - I just think there's varying degrees of passion and desire to get a job done, and if it's there then the work will be too.

But going back to my first point, the way the OP is talking about 5ww courses leads me to think he has this rose-tinted view of electrics that so many on my course seem to have. As my lecturer once said: "we're not handing out bus passes"

 

[eodneil]

In my college class of 12 I'm the only one who has done anything electrical. Yet all those 12 (and the next 12, and the previous 12) were sold the course and told by the college that there was loads of work out there, and the college would even help with finding work for everyone.

There wasn't, and they didn't. And every 3 months a new enrolment happens, and a load more folk pay a hefty amount of money for a course that is going to be no use to them.

If that sounds negative, youre right, it is.

Can I ask if this was a day release course at a college and took about 3 years? This happened regularly where people were working in desk jobs or something completely unrelated to Electrical Installations. What would generally happen is the students would forget a lot of the practical skills they were taught on the level 2 by the time they finished their level 3 qualification, which led to most of them losing confidence in themselves and then never really chancing the jump from the comfortable job into the electrical industry.

Now I teach adults with similar backgrounds but they have already made the jump before starting the level 2 full time (5 days a week) and out of the 25 or so Level 3 Electrical Improvers I have had qualify in the past 2 years, only one of them have not gone onto working within the industry. They also have the advantage of having the practical skills still fresh in their heads by the time they apply for an Electrical Improver role, this has led to a lot of excellent feedback from their employers I have spoke to. My students range from 21 up to 48, I have just helped a 45 year old lady secure work today too and the majority of these level 3 students are now on their NVQ level 3 or looking to start in the near future. 

I will back up what thebight was getting at and say that people shouldn't be put off by their age (to a point obviously) especially someone who is only 32 years old. I have been rang up 3 times in the past 2 weeks by contractors looking for trainees, today a recruitment agency called me to ask if I knew 3 Electrical Improvers who can start Monday for at least a 20 week job.

Neil