New cooker--old cable

[dave2]

Just had a call from an old lady who has just purchased a new cooker.

The cooker was delivered today and I guy has been paid to install.

He has refused to do this because

1 No rcd present

2 No earth to existing

3 Cable is of the old black variety

This is a like for like replacement.

I doubt if there is any bonding etc at the main board.

I will be looking at this tomorrow.

Any thoughts?

Dave2

 

[Andy™]

i would connect it providing it was safe to do so

 

[NozSpark]

1. Why's that relevant for a like for like (unless it's in the MI's)

2. No earth, are they saying the the existing is fed by 2 core? - obviously if there is no earth it'll need sorting

3. Black cable, is that butyl, or TRS? - If it's old VIR then it'll more than likely need replacing

These delivery drivers/installers are a PITA IMHO

 

[dave2]

Just visited the premises and this is how it looks.

TT with earth at Wylex board but no sign of rod etc.

From cut out there are 2 x 10mm cables.

One PVC T&E (earth cut off) feeding switched fused isolator,which in turn feeds the cooker circuit with 6mm T&E. A separate 4mm earth has been run from Wylex board to fused isolator.

The other cable is of the old rubber variety which is the feed to the Wylex board.

Both cables are stripped well back from entry into the cut out.

No bonding to either water or gas.

No RCD

The cooker switch is directly above the existing cooker.

I propose to bond water and gas.

.

Sink earth rod in garden to provide visible earth connection.

New tails to 100mA rcd, then to a double pole connector block and finally split to Wylex board and fused switch.(thoughts please on the rcd)

All this just to install a new cooker.

Dave2

 

[kme]

Make sure the cooker switch doesn`t have a socket outlet; else you`ll have to use a 30mA RCD; though I`d want to use one anyway!!!

Earth wise - what is the current Ra?

Can you explain the bit about the Wylex board and fused switch split? Are you proposing this 100mA RCD as a "front end" for the installation? That won`t comply.

Remember that, as "last man in"; any alterations you make, which affect the installation as a whole, MUST comply with the relevant legislation.

Its also notifiable work, as far as part P goes.

KME

 

[dave2]

The cooker switch does indeed have a socket outlet but I propose to swap this for a single cooker switch which will be installed in an adjacent cabinet.The existing one is directly above the cooker.

I have not measured Ra as yet.

The Wylex board feeds the 2x lighting circuits, and 2x ring circuits only.

The cooker must have been an afterthought as this has its sole supply from the switched fuse which is adjacent to the Wylex board.

Technically I could install a 30mA RCD after the switched fuse and leave the tails alone, even if they are in a poor condition but would I have to upgrade the earthing/bonding even if Ra was<200 ohms? I believe so.

Andy has said he would just do the job if it was safe. The existing cooker has been in for 30 years without any problems so what do we do? They are 84 year old pensioners who could do without the cost of upgrading for the sake of changing an appliance.

I am aware of work in kitchens is notifiable.

Dave2

 

[Andy™]

Andy has said he would just do the job if it was safe.

yes, but from what you have said, in my opinion it isnt safe, so i wouldnt connect it

 

[dave2]

Andy

Knowing what you know now what would you do?

 

[Andy™]

AndyKnowing what you know now what would you do?

either make it safe or walk

 

[Evans Electric]

You have to make it safe , as said . Sometimes you think Ah! a simple job ...becomes a load of hassle that has to be done . Trouble is its often an old dear who can ill afford the work.

There are still thousands of installations that have had loads of work done over the years but no one ever sorts the fact that there is no incoming earth a start , we are constantly trying to get them done and are pleasantly surprised when there is an updated cut-out and modern incomer that actually has an earth connection !!

Typical house bashing thing..... keep adding little one and two way splitters with yet more Henley Blocks and masses of meter tail but whatever happens ..don't upgrade the fuseboard ... someone who actually gives a s h i t e will come along and do it.

 

[NozSpark]

This is onevof those jobs that you have to do safely and correctly or walk I'm afraid.

Given that the owners are 84 is there any chance that either of them were in the armed services?

If they were and they need financial assistance to make their electrical installation safe then SSAFA and/or the British Legion might be able to help. They will also help widdows of ex servicemen. I've done a full rewire for someone with assistance.

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

The existing cooker has been in for 30 years without any problems so what do we do? Dave2

I hear this every other day. Tell them the reason it hasn't been a problem was there have been no faults in the house. If there had been a fault on any part of the electrics they could have received an electric shock, like the unfortunate mother that was electrocuted in the bath due to a corroded earth rod, no Rcd and an earth fault on a heater in the kitchen

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

The cooker switch does indeed have a socket outlet but I propose to swap this for a single cooker switch which will be installed in an adjacent cabinet.The existing one is directly above the cooker.I have not measured Ra as yet.

The Wylex board feeds the 2x lighting circuits, and 2x ring circuits only.

The cooker must have been an afterthought as this has its sole supply from the switched fuse which is adjacent to the Wylex board.

Technically I could install a 30mA RCD after the switched fuse and leave the tails alone, even if they are in a poor condition but would I have to upgrade the earthing/bonding even if Ra was<200 ohms? I believe so.

Andy has said he would just do the job if it was safe. The existing cooker has been in for 30 years without any problems so what do we do? They are 84 year old pensioners who could do without the cost of upgrading for the sake of changing an appliance.

I am aware of work in kitchens is notifiable.

Dave2

If you say you could not visibly see a rod AND you are considering installing a rod....

How come you haven't bothered to try and check the Ra yet!!!!! bad day explode

How can you start making decisions without verifying the condition of the existing earth arrangements????

132.16... ? no?

"The existing cooker has been in for 30 years without any problems so what do we do? They are 84 year old pensioners who could do without the cost of upgrading for the sake of changing an appliance."

Well tell them to keep the old appliance then.....Ask them if they can buy a new car today without.. ABS breaks, Seat belts, Airbags, Fog lights etc....

They could have 30 years ago.....

BUT they can't today......

even though 30 year old cars can still drive on the road..

in the event of an accident they have greater chance of being killed than in a modern car...

Same for the electrics..

rules & regs have changed....

either do it proper or leave the old one in....

But as SlipSlap said...

in the event of a fault there is more chance they will be scooped up off the floor and put in a box if they keep the old wiring arrangement!

:C