New Solaredge/solarworld Install Questions

[Ronski]

Hi all,

I'm an extremely keen diyer (just Google Ronskis cinema to see some of my work), so it's not often that I get trades in to do work, and when I do I want to be sure the jobs been done correctly to a good standard. I've been reading quite a few of the threads in the PV section over the last couple of the days and have found some very useful info, like making sure the the PV doesn't feed off/to an RCD which has other circuits on. Also that the inverter shouldn't be mounted in the loft, although in our case it's about the only place.

The system I'm having installed is a 4kw, using Solarworld 250W panels, and Soleredge inverter (SE4000-16A) and power optimisers. It will be installed on two roof's at 90 deggrees to each other. The roofs are Marley Modern concrete tiles.

One question that I have is what is best practice for the DC cables to enter the loft space, my installer has said they come through with one of the hooks and through a gap in the felt. To me this means that over time the cables could get crushed or chaffed by the tile resting on them, this of course does depend on how much the installer grinds out of the tile. Would it not be better, and safer to use a proper outlet like Klober Solar-Line? (Would post a link but I can't )

My installer also says the 99% of inverters are fitted in lofts in the UK, and they've had very few problems, I don't have any other options for it to go else where (the garage is detached) and I think it was an American forum I was reading that said it was bad, is it a problem in this country?


 

 

[roys]

My inverter is mounted in the loft bolted straight onto the brick, had no problems with it, I think on the issues on it is that loft temps can get quite high, however since having the panels on my roof the loft is a lot cooler, must be due to the panels shading the roof so to speak.

Onto the cable entries, my installer used a plastic vented tile to bring the cable in, worked well, I was happy with it.

You are correct about having the solar on its own RCD, certainly the best way to go.

 

[steptoe]

I usually grind the tile and use a bit of 5/8 oval

 

[binky]

One question that I have is what is best practice for the DC cables to enter the loft space, my installer has said they come through with one of the hooks and through a gap in the felt. To me this means that over time the cables could get crushed or chaffed by the tile resting on them, this of course does depend on how much the installer grinds out of the tile. Would it not be better, and safer to use a proper outlet like Klober Solar-Line? (Would post a link but I can't )

My installer also says the 99% of inverters are fitted in lofts in the UK, and they've had very few problems, I don't have any other options for it to go else where (the garage is detached) and I think it was an American forum I was reading that said it was bad, is it a problem in this country?

you're installer is a bodger. It is a requirement of MCS standards, and just general good practice to use a proper entry into the roof designed for that purpose. This can take the form of a standard roof vent or something like Dektite products, which is my favourite.

Solaredge - waste of money unless you have serious shading issues, minor shading can be overcme with SMA inverter. THis means no potentially unreliable equipment is located on the roof.

As for 99% of inverters in attics, this may be true due to sheer laziness. Unless the array totally shades the roof, the attic will get hot in summer, this means the inverter becomes less efficient as it can't dissipate heat so effectively, and ultimately will fail earlier - you don't go jogging in a coat!

 

[Ronski]

Thanks very much for the replies, that links not working on my tablet, I'll have a dig around when on my PC tonight. Also don't seem to have permission to view the attachment.

Unfortunately it's almost impossible to tell who's a bodger, and how much of a bodger they are. The company gets excellent reviews on checkatrade, but most people won't have a clue the correct way to do it so the review is based on other parts of the install/experience.

Regarding solaredge, it actually wasn't much more expensive, and as I'm sure your are aware has panel level monitoring, and slightly better safety when shut down which we felt was worth the extra cost.

The roof won't be fully shaded by the panels, although I expect it will help to reduce loft temperatures. There isn't anywhere else it can really go, so I'll monitor temperatures, and if it does run too warm I'll install a temperature controlled fan to cool it down.

 

[Lurch]

that links not working on my tablet

Unfortunately there isn't a lot that link will work on. Try this

 

[Ronski]

Thanks, I knew the URL wasn't quite right but just too fiddly on a tablet to suss it out. I can see the attachment now.

I notice they do two types, aluminium and nu-lead, which is the correct/better one for use on flat concrete tiles?

Any other tips/things I should check/be aware of?

 

[binky]

if soalredge wasn't more expensive there is something wrong, it is about £600 dearer than an SMA. SMA are the biggest manufacturer of inverters in the world, and top quailty units

Couple of pints for you:-

1/ properly fitted DC is safe

2/ I have known Optimisers to fail, and when they all fail in about 20 years, its a firkin expensive job to access roof and replace

3/ If you don't have serious shading there is little point in optimisers or micro-inverters

4/ why do you want to monitor the individual panels? Panels are the most reliable part of the system and manufactured to full ISO standards usually over seen by TuV of Germany. Inverters are the weak point.

5/ inverters can be fitted to an outside wall, oh, but wait, that involves a little more work.....

6/ if proper roof vents ar e used for the cable entry that will help ventilate the roof space.

Cowboys:-

1/ did you respond to a telephone call or shiny advert?

2/ you have already encountered one, or at least a tosspot sales rep

3/ get 3 quotes.

4/ trusted trader is dubious, it works for the trader and never publishes bad reviews - who pays trusted trader??? not you!

Can I ask waht panels / rails you have been quoted for and how much for the system?

Incidentally my company has fitted nearly 800kW of solar to date, all designed by me and every install bespoke to the roof and customer - no generic ***** from me!

Binky is correct and here is a proper tile entry system

Its called a DEKtite Multi Cable Solar Flashing

http://www.deks.co.uk/admin/website_templates/deks/pdfs/Solar%20Solutions%200314(1).pdf 

Screen Shot 2015-10-30 at 10.12.16.png

rare praise from the paddler

Love Dektite, ruddy brilliant.

 

[Ronski]

That reply seems a little OTT!

I'll respond tomorrow when it's not late and I'm not tired.

 

[steptoe]

tbh,

that reply seems about honest,

what im really surprised about is the fact he hasnt completely and utterly spread me for grinding a tile and using some 5/8 as an entry,,,,,,,    :C

 

[Ronski]

Ah but Stepoe he has, he's indirectly called you a bodger and a cowboy because you grind out the tile for cable entry ; -)

It was the second half of his post I found a little OTT.

I'm not some naive *****, every bodies opinion on what's right, what's wrong, which is system is best will be different, does this make them all bodgers & cowboys?

How is a person supposed to choose somebody to carry out a job whatever it is? It's very difficult, best way is recommendations, but even that it flawed! If the person recommending has no idea what is right and wrong then they can only go by how polite the company is, time keeping, tidyness, but the job can still be a total bodge job! How do you choose who maintains your vans?

I've had many a bad experience over the years, and as I said before I rarely use trades. The builder I chose to build our extension was a complete nightmare, this was after numerous recommendations. One of those who recommended him ended up taking him to court! I've had to argue with building inspectors before, as they insisted that uninsulated cavity closers are acceptable, as that's the way everyone does it. It was only after I asked if the building regs clearly stated that insulated cavity closers must be used that he gave in and said yes.

The company I got in to fit our fitted wardrobes was a nightmare, the MD who came and priced up said all his fitters were trust worthy and had been with him for years. He told me that our job was big so he was sending two guys. I was at home all the time (trust no one!) and on the final morning the fitter who was in charge came and told me he had suspicions about the other guy. When I checked some jewellery and a wrist watch had gone! So he said to call the police, which I did. When they eventually arrived the items were retrieved from the van, and the thief was carted off to spend a night in jail and then he disappeared, never to appear in court. It turned out the thief was only there to drive the fitter around as he'd lost his licence, and was not employed by the company. The fitter had to pay him out of his own pocket, the fitter was now stuck 100 miles from home, the MD just told him to make his own way back! It was also made quite clear if I with held final payment then the most honest person I'd ever met would not have been paid! Now that's a cowboy!

I also employed someone we knew to screed a floor, didn't know him well, but my wife knew his wife. He said it would cost £300, which I thought was steep, he said it needed two men and would take a day, as I was in a hurry and we sort of knew him  I said yes. He also told me it would need 8 bags of cement and of course sharp sand. I already had nearly a ton left over from the builders, but he said that wouldn't be enough so he got more. On the day the job should have been done they didn't arrive. So another day was arranged, this time they turned up, but completed the job by lunch time and I got a message from my wife saying that he would collect HIS bags of cement later. When I phoned him and asked what I owed him as it had only taken half a day, he said £300! I said what about the 6 bags of cement and the sand, he wanted to charge me to take away the additional sand that he said the job needed! And there was no reduction for the cement or shorter job time, now there's another cowboy!

Well the wife's hassling me to get on with the decorating, so I'll answer the questions later, which also means I've not had chance to read what I've written, so hopefully it makes sense.

 

[Ronski]

@Binky

We've been looking into Solar PV since the beginning of September, and it's been a steep learning curve. I'm aware that the inverter can be fitted outside, but I don't particularly want it outside. As I've said I'll monitor the temperature and if it's running hot I'll take steps to improve ventilation. We're also aware that having 16 optimisers on the roof is 16 additional points of failure, if they do become too troublesome then we can change to an SMA inverter, yes it will cost but it's an option, hence why we didn't use smart panels with built in optimisers.

In answer to your Cowboys questions.

My brother initially started getting quotes, not sure how this first come about, whether it was door to door, or a phone call, but these companies were soon dismissed. They were quoting way over £8k, I'm sure he even had quotes of £9k from one pushing micro inverters and they just came across as dodgy.

At work we've recently had a 50kw system installed by a local company, I didn't really have anything to do with this apart from sorting out the monitoring link because they couldn't get it working. The electrician did a really tidy install but was not at all clued up about networking. They tried using wi-fi which didn't reach from the office, then they tried power line adapters, which didn't work (power line adapters are nothing more than a bodge anyway and yes I know thats how Soleredge optimisers relay data to the inverter), then I got involved and suggested they made use of the network sockets that were already adjacent to the inverters either directly or using a wi-fi access point, simple. Anyway this company quoted me £8500 for a 4kw system with standard inverter, so that was them dismissed after they said they could only offer 2.5% discount.

I then Googled for some local companies and contacted them, we also contacted a company in Exmouth that was advertising on EBay, we got various prices. From these it came down to a local company, and the company in Exmouth. The Exmouth company was £750 cheaper, but given the distance we decided to go with the local company. Both these companies came across professional, hence why we whittled it down to them, the decision wasn't based purely on price.

Neither of these companies pushed us towards the Soleredge system, both said that a traditional system would be adequate, it was us that liked the sound of the Soleredge system and research showed that the newer Soleredge optimisers are far more reliable than the original design.

The Exmouth company quoted us £5.4k for Solaredge/JA Smart Panels and £5.1k  for a Growatt inverter/Solarworld panels. These prices excluded scaffolding, which I've been quoted £420 for.

The local companies quote came in at £6150 for Solaredge/Solarworld panels excluding scaffold (I can get it cheaper), and they are an approved Solarworld installer, now whether that actually means anything who knows.

All the above are for a 4kw system, and include VAT.

For added protection we've both paid a deposit via credit card, this will give us added cover for the entire installation under Section 75.

So as you can see from the above we contacted, and got quotes from far more than 3 companies/installers, probably nearer 10.

At the end of the day time is running out, we had to make a choice of who to use and what to fit. As I said earlier it's difficult to be certain that choice is correct, and of course it's a gamble as to what installers are still going to be around come next year.

Incidentally my company has fitted nearly 800kW of solar to date, all designed by me and every install bespoke to the roof and customer - no generic ***** from me!

Funnily enough the company we are using said something along the very same line as the above!

 

[Jono Pashley]

Must say when we were fitting solar i preferred Solar Edge to everyone elses kit....mainly because the inverter is much lighter and easier to handle...As for the optimizer units they come with a 25 year warranty same as most panels and the bonus of if you isolate the inverter from the panels you will only get 1VDC per optimizer coming down the DC lines into the property.

 

[Ronski]

Mounting hardware is Sunfix Plus by Solarworld.

 

[binky]

OK Ronski. I eat, sleep and breath solar as other members on this forum may tell you and hence my tag above my avatar was modified to Eco-Warrior by one of our fun loving admins. Hence I get angry at any company that fails to stick to good installation practices and will happily call them cowboys - I've fixed a lot of systems for people we didn't install. This sort of stuff annoys me intensly as it ruins the reputation of what is a very good product, that is helping save the planet!

MIS2000 to which we work states categorically that we must use a roof entry designed to provide a roof entry not jam cables in a notch in a tile, or use silicone for that matter.  I have seen companies make there own from lead sheet, which is probably just as good as it's an old roofing technique. You are better off with a local company, driving from Exmouth to Kent costs money, this usually manifests itself in low wages for low skilled workers....

I also maintain a number of systems for a local Energy Community who use 3 installers of which I am 1, but I do all the maintenance. 1 of the companies uses Solaredge for every installation, I have seen optimisers fail, and solaredge inverters fail within 6 months, this is on systems fitted this year and last year. So it begs the question of reliability and quality control. Unless you have notable shading I would recommend you don't use this system. Other than that I do like Solaredge in principle. The most efficient small inverter, which will work with Solarworld panles is Steca, oddly enough this is the badged inverter Solaworld sell.

Solarworld only make panels, everything else is badge engineering including the inverters and rails. If you fit all Solarworld stuff you get some enhanced warranties, but then you paid more for equipment with a badge on.... The panels will last 35-40years, you will have to access the roof to change the optimisers when they fail before the panels do. Solarworld panels are very good by the way, we've had very good feedback on systems we have fitted previously. Currently my favourite panel is LG Neon series - best panel I have ever fitted. I also really like Panasonic, but price is high and I haven't seen enough additonal performance benefit to justify extra cost. I check in with my customers every year to find out how their systems have performed. Nothing like real world figures to refine system designs.

Warranty wise, your deposit will be registered with a third party, who for a small premium will underwrite the system for 5 -10years - your installer should have included this in the price.

With regards to installers, you are probably stuck with whoever you have chosen now, but do insist on the small details, this is a long life system and needs to be installed with that in mind. Also insist all panel connectors are cable tied to the rails to keep them off the roof. They can get swamped in heavy rain causing earth-leakage issues if left lying on the roof.

£6.5 k with the vat and scaffold is about right

 

[Ronski]

Thank you very much for that reply binky, I can understand you getting annoyed at installers who don't do everything as they should, it just didn't come across very well earlier in the thread. Unfortunately a lot of people, no matter what their job often get it wrong, or at least not 100% correct, and probably the majority think what they are doing is correct, often it's because they just haven't kept up to date, at best this makes them ill informed, I'm not sure if it makes them cowboys though.

Earlier tonight I emailed the installer regarding the use of the correct cable entry system, and will insist on this, and make sure that the cables are securely tied up - I will be keeping a very close eye on the installation, so the more I can learn the better I can check the install. I will also install additional ventilation in the loft, near the ridge to allow hot air to escape.

You and other's have now got me thinking as to whether Solaregde is the right choice. My array is being installed on two roofs, 90 degrees to each other (the house is L shaped), so 2 arrays of 2 x 4 panels each. One roof has a boiler flue which will cause minor shading, the other roof I've noticed late afternoon gets a shadow from the ridge this time of year. So probably minimal shading issues on mine, my brother has a large tree which does shade his early to mid morning, once that is heavily trimmed he should have no shading issues.

The reason we liked the Solaredge system is we can understand what the are trying to do with the optimisers (it makes sense), in a normal string arrangement one under performing panel (whether that be shade induced or a seagull dumping it's load) can bring the whole string performance down. With the optimisers it would/should make minimal difference. Also I like the ability to be able to see what each panel is doing, with a normal inverter how would you know if one panel was faulty/under performing, and even if it looked like there was a faulty panel (however unlikely it's possible) how would you know which one it was? I also like the fact that when you shut down the PV system the optimisers drop the voltage to 1v per optimiser. If the optimisers where installed along the very top edge, and very bottom edge, rather than the centre line of the panels it should mean they could be replaced with out removing the panels.

What are the enhanced warranties if you fit all Solarworld stuff?

The deposit is held with the Real Deposit Insurance Scheme.

I'm still in my 14 day cooling off period, although I wouldn't want to change installer.

 

[Ronski]

You mention Steca inverters, but these aren't mentioned on the Solarworld website, they do mention SMA inverters and this is what our installer originally quoted for, what's your thoughts on these? And how good is the monitoring?

 

[Ronski]

Optimisers are 25 years, inverter is 12 years and can be extended to 20 or 25 years.

 

[binky]

warranty extension is quite cheap for Solaredge, but warranty isn't worth sh!te if it isn't underwrtitten by a third party, and lot of solar businesses have gone to the wall. Now what the warranty is telling you is that you will have to access roof in 20-25 years time, maybe sooner?

Solarworld do a rebadged Steca 3600TL, the Sunplug, it has a nice yellow cover instead of grey. Just had a look at the website, I now know why some SMAs are yellow.

For your roof, SMA is best option Opti trac suites light shading, don't worry about shade fom ridge, you've had max output from system before that is an issue

https://www.youtube.com/embed/5AIrc_mB9vk?feature=oembed
For your brother Steca - it has single MPPT so not suitable for your split array and comes with 10 year warranty.

Best rail system is Schletter - built like brick outhouse, loctite preapplied at factory on all threads, 10 year warranty. I like the way it is designed to 'jam' itself together in a way that doesn't just rely on nuts and bolts being done up tight - Renusol is good too

 

[2116shakey]

Hi Folks, I've received a quote for solar panels so can I have some feedback please.

· 8 x LG MonoX 285kW total 2.28 kW
· Trannergy Inverter
· Landis & Gyr generation meter
· Schletter fitting kit
· All Labour
· 10 year workmanship warranty 
· Grid connection notification
· MCS certificate
· EPC certificate
· Assistance with FIT form
. Scaffold 

Total £4546.15 incl.

Much appreciated 

Shakey