Oven Death - Partial Verdict
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OMFG. that is just about the most horrific thing i have ever read........
john...
john...
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So the people that wrote the spec are going to carry the can, not the ones that designed it to that spec.
So it seems...
If memory serves, on the original post about this; the door closed & bolted automatically, from the outside when operated.
Didn`t it have a ten minute delay, or something, before it heated up??
I recall the original story turned my stomach - its difficult to apportion blame without knowing all the details.
But could you envisage if it WAS locked off - but still worked, through another supply or something??
I think, if it were me, I`d have wanted to put something in the way of the door, to stop it closing & sealing !!
ray :_|
Didn`t it have a ten minute delay, or something, before it heated up??
I recall the original story turned my stomach - its difficult to apportion blame without knowing all the details.
But could you envisage if it WAS locked off - but still worked, through another supply or something??
I think, if it were me, I`d have wanted to put something in the way of the door, to stop it closing & sealing !!
ray :_|
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In the old days you would have taken the fuses out and put them in your pocket.
Its still horrific ........imagine the poor guy trapped in there , suddenly realises it's been switched on .
It must be a H&S thing , no blame on the electrical guy .
Like most things , the danger is realised too late , but there should have been a safety procedure. We used to do work at a large steel works in the Midlands , it wasn't until someone had their fingers chopped off by the wheels of a 100 ton overhead crane that they introduced a caliper system for the isolator switches and the ruling that no one must work while the crane rails are live .
Caliper went on the isolator , it had a row of holes so you could have , say , our padlock plus a fitter's lock ...another spark's lock . Crane coulldn't be moved until all the locks were cleared and signed in .
It must be a H&S thing , no blame on the electrical guy .
Like most things , the danger is realised too late , but there should have been a safety procedure. We used to do work at a large steel works in the Midlands , it wasn't until someone had their fingers chopped off by the wheels of a 100 ton overhead crane that they introduced a caliper system for the isolator switches and the ruling that no one must work while the crane rails are live .
Caliper went on the isolator , it had a row of holes so you could have , say , our padlock plus a fitter's lock ...another spark's lock . Crane coulldn't be moved until all the locks were cleared and signed in .
I've worked inside industrial ovens, the tale is just so sad, and as KME says stomach churning.
We used to go in with the ovens on, and a man outside, you'd hold your breath, as the heat was literally breathtaking.
It upsets me, honestly and seriously to even contemplate what that poor guy went through.
Commiserations to all involved.
However, FWIW, IMHO, and this is a probably sub judice opinion, it is the specifier at fault, not the dtail designer, as the Judge seems to have ruled somfar.
Not that that helps really.
I would also suggest parallels with the Octel case & the Dancerama Footwear case, in somewhat similar blame.
We used to go in with the ovens on, and a man outside, you'd hold your breath, as the heat was literally breathtaking.
It upsets me, honestly and seriously to even contemplate what that poor guy went through.
Commiserations to all involved.
However, FWIW, IMHO, and this is a probably sub judice opinion, it is the specifier at fault, not the dtail designer, as the Judge seems to have ruled somfar.
Not that that helps really.
I would also suggest parallels with the Octel case & the Dancerama Footwear case, in somewhat similar blame.
As said that was a dreadfull tragedy .
Its easy for us to sit in judgement with hindsight but ...........I think the company & the employees & the maintenance dept & the designer & the commisioner could have identified that situation occurring .
A simple one only key system that enables the electrics OR operates the door could have done it .
Its easy for us to sit in judgement with hindsight but ...........I think the company & the employees & the maintenance dept & the designer & the commisioner could have identified that situation occurring .
A simple one only key system that enables the electrics OR operates the door could have done it .
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Ah yes thats the name Dave . I remember them as a square shape with a raised number or one set up they were an A and a B key I think .
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Yes Fortress is another make we used.
they do all sorts of things, including key exchange boxes, so a whole set of access keys need to be in the box before it will release the operate key.
Even the most basic system with one key that can open the door OR start the oven (but not both at the same time) would have done that. But a multiple key and key exchange system would have allowed the worker to take a key in with him and the oven would not turn on until his key was replaced.
Lots of possibilities to have made it safe.
they do all sorts of things, including key exchange boxes, so a whole set of access keys need to be in the box before it will release the operate key.
Even the most basic system with one key that can open the door OR start the oven (but not both at the same time) would have done that. But a multiple key and key exchange system would have allowed the worker to take a key in with him and the oven would not turn on until his key was replaced.
Lots of possibilities to have made it safe.
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Used to use both Fortress and Castell (think I've still got a couple in the depths of the shed) but more recently the Allen Bradley trapped key jobbies (440T-MSRUE11A).
A few hundred quid each but peanuts compared to a life!
A few hundred quid each but peanuts compared to a life!
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thing is, even if the systems were there, it would be easy to ignore it. a simple lock through something on the door to stop it locking would work, but probably wouldnt be used often, especially if someone often climbs in to clean etc... as PD's suggestion, unless the person then removes key from door and keeps it with him, then someone could easily remove key from door and into control panel and start it, almost exactly as what did happen.
i guess a simple solution could simply be something next to the door where its easy to mark 'do not use' (like below) and a visual check before starting could have prevented this
i guess a simple solution could simply be something next to the door where its easy to mark 'do not use' (like below) and a visual check before starting could have prevented this
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We used them for all sorts of confined space, high voltage or other hazardous situation and the key thing (sic) was anyone working in the restricted space had one of the keys with him.
There was also the matter of signing in / signing out, and even a permit to work system before any work was done so there was a plan in place.
There was also the matter of signing in / signing out, and even a permit to work system before any work was done so there was a plan in place.
I think, by the verdict, the Judiciary have for once got it almost right.
It was a total breakdown in safety awareness, from design, through manufacture, to installation and use.
IMHO ALL parties were guilty, except the poor victim, mind, perhaps he could have thought more about the consequences of his actions.
However, in his place I would have done something to protect myself.
Not trying to detract in any way means shape or form from this tragedy.
One last comment, can anyone, who is involved in machinery safety in any way means or form, please take something constructive from this from an engineering standpoint, to make things safer & better.
Please do NOT rely on a Judge to not impose a fine that will not shut the company down.
Focus on the, NOT INJURING someone bit PLEASE.
If you are not familiar with the statute laws, standards and guidance around machinery safety, please don't do it.
A human life is worth too much to get things wrong.
It was a total breakdown in safety awareness, from design, through manufacture, to installation and use.
IMHO ALL parties were guilty, except the poor victim, mind, perhaps he could have thought more about the consequences of his actions.
However, in his place I would have done something to protect myself.
Not trying to detract in any way means shape or form from this tragedy.
One last comment, can anyone, who is involved in machinery safety in any way means or form, please take something constructive from this from an engineering standpoint, to make things safer & better.
Please do NOT rely on a Judge to not impose a fine that will not shut the company down.
Focus on the, NOT INJURING someone bit PLEASE.
If you are not familiar with the statute laws, standards and guidance around machinery safety, please don't do it.
A human life is worth too much to get things wrong.
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+1 to the above.
Given the background of where I did my apprenticeship, basic safety like working in confined spaces with hazards was drilled into us. If I had just started working for that company and they told me to go and do a job inside the oven I would be asking about the permit to work system and the lockout procedure. In this case the answer would have been "what are you on about?"
Given the background of where I did my apprenticeship, basic safety like working in confined spaces with hazards was drilled into us. If I had just started working for that company and they told me to go and do a job inside the oven I would be asking about the permit to work system and the lockout procedure. In this case the answer would have been "what are you on about?"
surely somthing like the supply would have a isolator padlocked off or a warning message on door of oven MAN WORKING INSIDE DO NOT TURN OVEN ON or something simple like that.
