Part P Electricans - valuable or dangerous?

[andy8758]

That mighty voice of reason "Professional Electrician" Magazine published yet more rants against the humble Domestic Installer (OK I am one :_| ). The consensus in this organ of impartiality is that Domestic Installers are dangerous, over-confident, and taking over work from honest "time-served" electricians.

Personal prejudice aside, I have trained with some very dodgy characters during my qualification -"pass Part P today, boss buys van and sends out on electrician jobs tomorrow?" And a number of Private Training Colleges I enquired with, gave the impression that a few thousand quid and a Part P exam pass was all I needed to become an "electrician." All right - maybe not quite that simple, but they were certainly not offering the full 2330 Level 2/3 qualifications.

So what does everyone here think? ; \

I think it needs better regulation, and clearer qualifications, but I do not think it is necessary to do a 3 year apprenticeship, learning how to make the tea, sweep the floor, use PPE, etc when the only experience I needed was to do the work. So whilst I share many of the "Professional" concerns, I think its time the Industry as a whole woke up to diversity, and accepts that many of us can acquire the knowledge and skills without serving an apprenticeship.

 

[Theorysparky]

I think it needs better regulation, and clearer qualifications, but I do not think it is necessary to do a 3 year apprenticeship, learning how to make the tea, sweep the floor, use PPE, etc when the only experience I needed was to do the work. So whilst I share many of the "Professional" concerns, I think its time the Industry as a whole woke up to diversity, and accepts that many of us can acquire the knowledge and skills without serving an apprenticeship.[/QUOTE]

Firstly how many apprenticeships are out there? not as many as there should be

nothing wrong with DI's,,,,there are plenty of them on this forum still alive

P.E. can shout and scream as much as they like but while B+Q still sell everthing for the diyer to rewire his house its pointless

they should limit what these Diy stores sell

 

[Evans Electric]

How do you learn the trade without serving an apprenticship then ? Because we left school at 15 I did a 6 year apprenticeship . ( Couldn't go on the tools until you were 21) Although I was " on the tools" for the last 2 years there were always sparks there for the odd bit of advice.

However I remember that monday morning ,when 21, being sent from the office with a nervous 16 year old school leaver as a mate, to my first job as a sparks and thinking , your on your own now, no good asking this kid, he knows as much as I did at 15.

Forty years later I'm still learning !! ( But slightly more confident)

Deke

 

[D Brennan]

How do you learn the trade without serving an apprenticship then ? Because we left school at 15 I did a 6 year apprenticeship . ( Couldn't go on the tools until you were 21) Although I was " on the tools" for the last 2 years there were always sparks there for the odd bit of advice. However I remember that monday morning ,when 21, being sent from the office with a nervous 16 year old school leaver as a mate, to my first job as a sparks and thinking , your on your own now, no good asking this kid, he knows as much as I did at 15.

Forty years later I'm still learning !! ( But slightly more confident)

Deke

same story as me but im not quite 40 yet but had the same sort of apprentichip as you...infact im no were near 40:Y

 

[batty]

I did not do an apprentiship but was a trainee electrician for three years. I would have liked to have done one but the people I worked for would not do it. I got my quals through evening classes. I don't care what anybody says you cannot become an electrician by doing any course. You need to work with a spark to get the experience. I had a lad that worked with me who had been to a training group. He said he had done this and that but he could not even trim a bit of swa. So what are the training groups teaching. The government has ruined the training thing because if you take on an 18 year old you have to pay them over

 

[Andy™]

but I do not think it is necessary to do a 3 year apprenticeship,

but just because you have been on a few short courses, doesnt mean you know everything to do the job. fair enough, after a few weeks of courses you may be able to go into a house and add a few sockets safely, but you wont have any experience of fault finding, design work, various different areas (commercial can be very different from houses). you get all that by doing an apprenticeship.

 

[NozSpark]

but just because you have been on a few short courses, doesnt mean you know everything to do the job. fair enough, after a few weeks of courses you may be able to go into a house and add a few sockets safely, but you wont have any experience of fault finding, design work, various different areas (commercial can be very different from houses). you get all that by doing an apprenticeship.

I am a DI, I did a 4 year apprenticeship (avionic instrumentation) and got a HNC in electrical/electronic engineering, then I did 13 years in that job. I then took redundancy did my 2381 & 2391.... I don't have an NVQ to my name!!

However I have found during my time of being self employed that some of the work that I go to sort out (done by time served electricians - some of them AC's with the NIC) that their work is not only up to my standards butnot even upto the regs.

So what is worst....

a time served electrician who is still stuck in the 14th ed

OR

a newly trained DI who tries to do everything by the book..

I think you will find that there are good and bad electricians across the board, ACs DIs and non registered..

 

[Apache]

they should limit what these Diy stores sell

Interesting statement there Theory. To what extent would you limit things?

Everything available only to qualified sparks (sockets, cable, insulating tape?)?

Not sell CU's in B&Q? Would you let me change a plug? Replace a cracked switch?

You can go on the internet and buy yourself an anaesthetic machine and some surgical instruments - it doesn't make you a surgeon.

 

[Badger]

but just because you have been on a few short courses, doesnt mean you know everything to do the job. fair enough, after a few weeks of courses you may be able to go into a house and add a few sockets safely, but you wont have any experience of fault finding, design work, various different areas (commercial can be very different from houses). you get all that by doing an apprenticeship.

id say commercial is very different to houses,,,,

 

[Theorysparky]

Interesting statement there Theory. To what extent would you limit things? Everything available only to qualified sparks (sockets, cable, insulating tape?)?

Not sell CU's in B&Q? Would you let me change a plug? Replace a cracked switch?

You can go on the internet and buy yourself an anaesthetic machine and some surgical instruments - it doesn't make you a surgeon.

The point i am trying to make is that when people complain about part p sparks not being proper electricians they are missing the bigger problem

Diyers with no knowledge of the regs or whether what they are doing is safe

there are some diyers who are confident in the basics of electrics which i dont have a problem with

but ask any customer what is a 'safe zone' many would not have a clue

5 week sparkies are the same as a 17 year old passing his driving test.

safe to work/drive but lacking in experience.

 

[D Brennan]

I dont think there is anything wrong with being a domestic installer, i used to be nic di, i think people will choose which line of work they do most of and choose which registration suits best.

The problem is like everyone says, its people with limited electrical background or NON are becoming registered as domestic installers after a 5 day course and being able to do and selff certify the work just a a fully time served electrician can.

I Have friends who are fully time served nvq etc etc with 20 - 30 + years experience who choose to be registered as domestic installer cause it serves every purpose for them.

Its the handyman-kitchen fitters etc etc who decide to become part p after there quick course on electrics that are letting us down and giving it a bad name.

 

[Couleddie]

If someone registered with a Part P provider is not up to the job then surely this will show up during annual assessment. Reading previous threads about all your assessments it seems apparent that the assessors are no amateurs and can determine pretty quickly whether someone is capable and competent. Isn't that what these schemes are for or is there some conspiracy theory that assessors are receiving back handers to pass candidates who are about as proficient at sparking as Stevie Wonder is at using a pair of binoculars.

I agree, you can't learn this stuff in 5 days. I'm slowly getting a grip on the red book and although i've had a lot of experience on an amateur basis over the past 25 years as well as working with qualified sparks I realise that the amount of theoretical information you have to know is mind boggling and that it only comes with time and effort. I'm putting that effort in and until i'm satisfied with what I know and confident in my abilities I won't be bashing any walls around.

These fast track courses give genuine distance learning structured courses a bad name. The two are different.

The business of what is and what isn't notifiable is, in my mind, a bit nonsensical. For example, adding a socket to an existing circuit isn't notifiable but there's still a pretty high risk of some bozo making a cock up of that as there is of the same bozo cocking up a new circuit which IS notifiable. In addition, how is the non-experienced person to know that said circuit is safe to add an extra socket to?

So what do you do? Prevent anybody without the qualifications buying electrical accessories? In theory, that's the only rock solid way of enforcing the rules but you'll still get unscrupulous electricians knocking stuff off on the black market. Plus, you penalise those who CAN safely do non notifiable work including those who cannot afford to call in a professional. What's better - making something safe yourself or leaving it unsafe because you can't afford to have it done professionally. An extreme example maybe but you get the point. I'm on the fence at the moment as far as this subject goes and as someone 'learning the ropes' I can understand the issues.

 

[Theorysparky]

If someone registered with a Part P provider is not up to the job then surely this will show up during annual assessment. Reading previous threads about all your assessments it seems apparent that the assessors are no amateurs and can determine pretty quickly whether someone is capable and competent.I agree, also depends on the job you are showing and that there is enough there to indicate an understanding of the regs

The business of what is and what isn't notifiable is, in my mind, a bit nonsensical. For example, adding a socket to an existing circuit isn't notifiable but there's still a pretty high risk of some bozo making a cock up of that as there is of the same bozo cocking up a new circuit which IS notifiable. In addition, how is the non-experienced person to know that said circuit is safe to add an extra socket to?

That is the crux of it,,, well put

 

[Couleddie]

I agree, also depends on the job you are showing and that there is enough there to indicate an understanding of the regs

Perhaps this is where some amendments need to be made. I'm obviously not familiar with assessments so help me out here - what really is the most basic type of job you can use for an assessment?

Seems to me that there really needs to be a more specific list of work that can qualify for assessments. Something that puts the assessor under no illusions as to your understanding of the regs whilst avoiding setting traps to catch people out.

 

[ian932]

The business of what is and what isn't notifiable is' date=' in my mind, a bit nonsensical. For example, adding a socket to an existing circuit isn't notifiable but there's still a pretty high risk of some bozo making a cock up of that as there is of the same bozo cocking up a new circuit which IS notifiable. In addition, how is the non-experienced person to know that said circuit is safe to add an extra socket to?[/b']

I agree its a mess its like saying you can tap a feed for gas fire off the existing pipe in your house and not need a corgi plumber. The public understand the danger there so surely if it needs testing it should be left to a qualified electrician under the supervision of a scheme.

I was led to believe that Part P was an attempt to stop major diyer's, kitchen fitters, bathroom fitters from burning houses down but I've chatted with 2 separate kitchen fitters over the last month who still do their own elecs and never notify or so they say, never actually seen their work so can't shop them.

So it seems that Part P is not actually stopping the cowboy's - so hands up who is surprised at that :^O

 

[Couleddie]

I agree its a mess its like saying you can tap a feed for gas fire off the existing pipe in your house and not need a corgi plumber. The public understand the danger there so surely if it needs testing it should be left to a qualified electrician under the supervision of a scheme.I was led to believe that Part P was an attempt to stop major diyer's, kitchen fitters, bathroom fitters from burning houses down but I've chatted with 2 separate kitchen fitters over the last month who still do their own elecs and never notify or so they say, never actually seen their work so can't shop them.

So it seems that Part P is not actually stopping the cowboy's - so hands up who is surprised at that :^O

A lot of hands in the air then. Another example of this government throwing new regulations around in the air and expecting them to suddenly solve the world's problems. Regulations are fine if they're enforced but like speed limits the chance of being caught for breaking one is pretty slim.

You will never stop people doing work in their own houses - it's just impossible. When Part P came into force I was adamant it wouldn't stop me doing notifiable jobs in my house but since I decided to work towards qualifications i've come to realise it's there for a good reason and I respect it. That's me personally but I know people who fit kitchens that do the wiring themselves, etc. What can you do - if someone says they can do a job all in and it'll save X pounds what is the average punter going to say?

It's one of the reasons i'm getting qualified. As well as hopefully earning some money from it I want to be able to do stuff in my own house legally and safely. And in addition there's a heck of a lot of satisfaction in knowing you've done a job properly.

 

[M107]

I dont think there is anything wrong with being a domestic installer, i used to be nic di, i think people will choose which line of work they do most of and choose which registration suits best..

Spot on, hence the reason I'm only registered as niceic DI........

As Theory (I think) said you do & always willl get good & bad sparks in every field of the industry.

I do agree that maybe the diy sheds shouldn't sell some of the electrical gear they do (cu's / swa for example), you only have to stand & listen to some of the shoppers to realise they are well out of their depth, but they read the "how to do boards" or watch these diy programs & think its a doddle.

 

[Theorysparky]

Spot on, hence the reason I'm only registered as niceic DI........As Theory (I think) said you do & always willl get good & bad sparks in every field of the industry.

I do agree that maybe the diy sheds shouldn't sell some of the electrical gear they do (cu's / swa for example), you only have to stand & listen to some of the shoppers to realise they are well out of their depth, but they read the "how to do boards" or watch these diy programs & think its a doddle.

the best one is the 'everything you need for an outside socket 'pack

complete with the 15m of swa :^O

it took me long enough to learn how to present a gland on it properly :_|

 

[Robojin]

These fast track courses give genuine distance learning structured courses a bad name. The two are different.

There are good and bad in both types of course, I'm not a fan of distance learning unless there is a structured practical element to them, ultimately the quality of these courses are down to the ethics of the owners, and as in all businesses there are those that are there for the financial reward alone, the trick is spotting them, excessive fees are a good indicator.

The bigger question is: is it preferable that those motivated to seek training to be safe, are encouraged, rather than staying as the DIYers who don't know or the cowboys who don't care

For me, I know my current limitations, if I have a doubt I will not start the job without advice, I will not touch anything other than domestic because I want to sleep at night, I also accept that I've not got 30 years on the tools and do not pass myself of as fully qualified electrician to potential clients, if I had the opportunity to work alongside a experienced spark I'd take it :x

 

[Mark2spark]

The business of what is and what isn't notifiable is, in my mind, a bit nonsensical. For example, adding a socket to an existing circuit isn't notifiable...

It is if it's an outside socket or in a kitchen! LOL!

Quite where the extra danger comes from escapes me...

:coat

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