PIR EICR Question - nothing to do with codes!

[Apache]

Q. When carrying out a periodic inspection report on a commercial premises (vet surgery) is there any requirement to 'upgrade' the 100ma RCD for a 30ma RCD or else you'd have to 'fail it'?

Background info

TT earth (AFAIK)

Wired to 15th ed

All bonding in place in 10mm

Discuss.

 

[sellers]

what kind of vets? Agricultural installations need 30mA RCD for socket outlets and to ip44.

Otherwise I would say code 4, but I haven't seen the job. Did it fail on anything else? No supplimentary bonding?

 

[Apache]

Sellers - I'm just going to let this run for a little while at this stage before giving much more away. It's a mixed practice but the majority of animals seen at the surgery are pets. No central heating, no gas, no oil - just incoming water. I would hazard a guess that there would be good continuity through the pipes back to MET the plumbing is short unbroken runs in copper.

 

[Sidewinder]

Whatever happens get it sorted before 31/12/11 whatever, because, after that section 710 kicks in and that is quite onerous in certain areas!

As far as the RCD goes.

IMHO it is a code 4 if it is correctly co-ordinated with the earthing etc.

Under what regulations is the 30mA being required.

As it is a commercial premises then it is under supervision, so that one is out of the window, IMHO.

 

[Apache]

Any more thoughts on this? Will give you an update later.

 

[NozSpark]

Can't add anything to sidey's answer TBH

 

[Evans Electric]

All very mysterious!!!

Its done to the 15th so thats what you inspect . IMO.

However if someone was buying the pactice , someone would want to upgrade the board, perhaps to a dual RCD, when they moved in IMO.

Does the report give a reading for the rod ?

 

[steptoe]

give me til after dinner,

 

[Apache]

Basically the story is not very exciting. Insurance renewal and they request a PIR on the electrics. Vendor calls a local NICEIC registered electrician who calls in to give a price. Takes one look at the board and says 'the first thing we have to do is fit a 30ma RCD as I have to 'fail' [his exact words] it without one'.

I enquire why is that [i'm not paying for this work!]. He tells me that ALL sockets now need 30ma protection or you can get a shock that could kill you. You could plug in a lawnmower and use it outside (despite there being a petrol lawnmower for the house and no grass belonging to the surgery.) I asked again if he was sure, pointing out that it was a commercial environment. He said he was sure but would ring the NICEIC to check.

He then came yesterday and fitted the RCD (Haven't looked if it's just on the sockets or in front of the whole board) and left the 100ma in place. Told us it was vital he did it first and reiterated that he couldn't pass things without.

Now I don't doubt that it has made things more safe but that's not what was being asked for. I'm going to scrutinise the cert when it comes. Made him noticeably twitchy when I was clearly familiar with the terminology. I think he's making work for himself. He getting assessed to be an AC in the new year.

 

[NozSpark]

Unless it's a TT installation then I'd very much doubt that you'd HAVE to RCD the socket circuits as surely they are classed as being under supervision etc.

 

[apprentice87]

Hi all,

Yes, but is it not the case that you would only have to do any "upgrades" etc, if you were extending or adding to the installation??

For example; Say you fitted wired in an extra socket that was not there before, then yes, you would have to have 30ma rcd protection for the "new" socket.

So far as i know though, none of the regs are retrospective, so you cannot "fail" anything just because the regs have moved on since it was installed, so long as it has not become dangerous through damage or other deterioration. Even if it has, i do not think that there is anything that says you have to "modernise" any installation.

If you just replaced "like for like" to deal with the "faulty bits" what would be the problem??? although, as i said above, if you "extended" or otherwise "changed" the installation, the new bits would have to be done to the latest regs.

Might not be ideal, but i cannot see it contravenes any regs......

john..

 

[steptoe]

Unless it's a TT installation then I'd very much doubt that you'd HAVE to RCD the socket circuits as surely they are classed as being under supervision etc.

Noz, as I read this it IS a TT,

but it has a 100mA S RCD front end,

which 'could' comply with 15th,

AND,

it is a premises under the control and supervision of a skilled(or instructed) person,

Apache, I assume you have an appointed skilled or instructed person? (this can, IMHO, simply be someone that states you cannot do anything unless authorised by a competent person) [for our purposes here at least]

NOT having a 30mA RCD would NOT simply be a fail for a normal TT install,

you do have a 100mA front end, dont you? or have I read this all wrong?

I think you have a typical 5WW that doesnbt understand there were actually standards that were worked to before he done his wondercourse,

BTW, is he competent to be doing work outside his normal remit if he isnt an AC yet? I assume he is a DI at present,

NICEIC may not take kindly to him working outside his scope of assessed competence.

 

[Manator]

I have two points to mention here, the first is that simply because it is a commercial premises, it does not mean that it is under supervision, this clause was introduced because most "industrial" places had a full time maintenance team who took care of the day to day running of the operations, and carried out preventative maintenance. Very few now classed commercial premises have this maintenace programs in place.

The second, and most important point, is that a PIR is a safety report, and nothing more, you are not there to pass, or fail any installation, only to report on the safety of the installation. There is a clear section, or should I say, paragraph, in the regulations that states simply because the installation was installed to a previous edition of the regulations, does not mean that the installation is now unsafe.

You can if you wanted refuse to carry out any testing, if you found during your visual inspection something that could cause you harm, or prove to be a danger to any

one using the installation, but in my experiance this is very rare. If the installation was fitted out as per the 15th edition, then all you could have is a load of code 4's, unless there has been some serious faults discovered during testing.

I hope that helps Apache.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Right lets just for the sake of arguments say this installation was been inspecting in 30 days time.....

i.e. after 1 Jan 2012..

so we are checking with ref to Green Book......

Condition Report Inspection Schedule:

Guidance for the Inspector.....

Bullet point 2.

Older installations designed prior to BS 7671:2008 may not have been provided with RCDs for additional protection.

The absence of such protection should as a minimum be given a code C3.

That is page 399 BGB...

AFAIK...

C3 is NOT a fail situation?

bottom line:

The installation could be safer..... BUT it is probably NOT unsafe!

Lack of RCD is NOT automatic fail!!!!!!!

Guinness

 

[Sidewinder]

Patch echoing the other guys comments, there is one thing that Manator & I can debate at length but I won't hijack your thread!

Ask him if the 100mA is an S type, and where he has located the 30mA, i.e. prior to or after the 100.

In either case get him to explain how he is going to achieve discrimination between the 30 & 100 if the 100 is NOT an S type.

Also ask him for the reg no. that deems he MUST fail the install and MUST upgrade it.

Finally ask him how he now complies with the minimising inconvenience bit as he has put a single 30 (perhaps) on the front end?

I don't have me regs book and I am about to dash out the door, else I'd check the reg for you.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Patch echoing the other guys comments, there is one thing that Manator & I can debate at length but I won't hijack your thread!Ask him if the 100mA is an S type, and where he has located the 30mA, i.e. prior to or after the 100.

In either case get him to explain how he is going to achieve discrimination between the 30 & 100 if the 100 is NOT an S type.

Also ask him for the reg no. that deems he MUST fail the install and MUST upgrade it.

Finally ask him how he now complies with the minimising inconvenience bit as he has put a single 30 (perhaps) on the front end?

I don't have me regs book and I am about to dash out the door, else I'd check the reg for you.

That'll be 314.1 "division of installation" page 39 Red / page 46 green!

Guinness

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

a local NICEIC registered electrician who calls in to give a price. Takes one look at the board and says 'the first thing we have to do is fit a 30ma RCD as I have to 'fail' [his exact words] it without one'. I think he's making work for himself. He getting assessed to be an AC in the new year.

Firstl, if he is an NICEIC enrolled 'domestic installer' he should not be using the NIC logo on any reports or paperwork in connection with this PIR as he has not been assessed for it . He may also not have insurance, either public liability to work on a commercial unit or professional indemnity as he is giving a report on others work.

However the new RCD has been fitted he had no reason to for the PIR. It was not dangerous to carry out the test and it may be 'unsatisfactory' (not fail) on numerous other problems. The 'proper' paper trail with corrective works is to issue Minor works (or some times installation certs) for the remedial works which are attached to the original PIR. I also note the PIR number on the minor works cert. A minor works cert should have been issued for the fitting of this RCD. If the PIR was satisfactory except for a small alteration such as this RCD i would then ask if the client wanted the work done so i could issue a satisfactory cert

 

[Evans Electric]

I think , like a lot of other guys , ( I may be wrong) that the sparks thinks he Is "Passing " and "Failing" when all he should be doing is Inspecting and Reporting .

He,s got himself an earner out of it with the RCD . Me dinners ready.!!