RCD's & Commercial

[Lurch]

OMG not starting down this road again. Lets just agree to disagree on that point.

It was a genuine question arising from the confusion of you not quoting what you were referring to.

I am unsure as to what it was you were actually agreeing with.

 

[ianmacd]

Ahh, ok, sorry Lurchie.

I was referring to the post by Risteard.

Regarding skilled/instructed persons and domestic installations, the On-Site Guide appears to suggest that no domestic installations can reasonably be classed as being under the control of skilled/instructed persons. As such, the exemptions in such circumstances would appear NEVER to apply to a domestic dwelling, regardless of whom lives within such a dwelling.

The quick reply option is far too easy on the page.

 

[steptoe]

I am of the opinion that my house is solely under the supervision of a skilled(stop laughing at the back) person. (at this present time)

however, I also realise that may/will/not always be the case, and therefore have added the option.

but in all honesty, why would it be easier to put all the supplementary bonding in place rather than just provide 30mA protection without a very good reason?

 

[Lurch]

Ahh, ok, sorry Lurchie.I was referring to the post by Risteard.

I see. So my house isn;t under the control of me? I can;t see how you can disagree with that actual fact.

I would say that you would never be doing a job in any domestic property that is under the control of skilled persons.

 

[ianmacd]

I refer my learned colleague to my previous post about not getting into that argument again.

 

[Lurch]

It's not an argument though, statement of fact, my house is a domestic dwelling.

But I can see your point, I'll get bored before the argument is over anyway!

 

[ianmacd]

I would say that you would never be doing a job in any domestic property that is under the control of skilled persons.

Thanks. I didn't think I was that skilled but I won't argue with you .

 

[ianmacd]

It's not an argument though, statement of fact, my house is a domestic dwelling. But I can see your point, I'll get bored before the argument is over anyway!

I understand and see your point (also the one Steps has given elsewhere too) but (as Steps also pointed out) it may not be next week (or even when you are out) so I can not state beyond reasonable doubt that it is. That is the basis for my view on that but (as usual) the reg's are a little on the grey side on this point.

 

[Lurch]

I understand and see your point (also the one Steps has given elsewhere too) but (as Steps also pointed out) it may not be next week (or even when you are out) so I can not state beyond reasonable doubt that it is. That is the basis for my view on that but (as usual) the reg's are a little on the grey side on this point.

Yes, hence why a PIR is pretty much essential at change of occupancy. Many landlords will do something about this, it's something that homeowners do not do themselves though unless the mortgage company requests it.

 

[spinlondon]

I think the reason these exceptions are not considered suitable for domestic premises, is because of EAWR.

In a commercial/industrial location, it would effectivley be illegal for anyone to carry out any work activity without first being trained or supervised, or in other words skilled or instructed.

EAWR applies to all work places, no exceptions.

There's nothing even vaguely similar with domestic premises. There's no PAT testing of appliances, no legal obligation for regular testing or maintenance of installations.

Unless it's your own premises, you as an inspector/installer have no guarantees that next week someone who is not skilled or instructed isn't going to do something silly, doesn't matter what the customer tells you.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

I see. So my house isn;t under the control of me? I can;t see how you can disagree with that actual fact.I would say that you would never be doing a job in any domestic property that is under the control of skilled persons.

Easy! It is all about the legal obligations to train or skill people..

not about how clever we think we are!

e.g.

When any friends or visitors come to your home you have NO obligations to give them any heath & Safety training about any aspects of your environment or any hazards it may contain.

You have NO legal obligation to keep your electrical installation inspected and to a high standard.

The fact that you are physical there carries NO legal weight with regard to how skilled any visitors are.

consider

If you are taken ill, in hospital for a few days,

family friends or relatives may go to your house to help out with a bit of cleaning & helping you out....

You are not there...

You are not in control...

You electrics are being used by unskilled untrained persons.!

This is a basic fact for ALL domestic dwellings.

there are NO heath & safety rules to have to adhere to!

It is Health & Safety act and its associated statutory documents that provide enforcement for BS7671.

Legally a non skilled DIY person can do anything they like in a domestic dwelling. Whether a skilled person lives their or not is irrelevant.

The Bottom line is....

The Heath & Safety at work act does NOT apply to you or anyone else going about their daily lives living at home....

BUT it always does in every commercial business environment.

even if someone is off sick... other suitably trained members of staff have to take on the relevant responsibilities..

Training & skilling of persons MUST be undertaken!

 

[Lurch]

When any friends or visitors come to your home you have NO obligations to give them any heath & Safety training about any aspects of your environment or any hazards it may contain.

But you wouldn't have to if it was part of a commercial installation. I am not trained every time I enter a commercial premises, as in McDonalds for instance, or the Co-Op over the road. So not training people entering my house makes no difference to the original fact.

consider If you are taken ill, in hospital for a few days,

family friends or relatives may go to your house to help out with a bit of cleaning & helping you out....

You are not there...

You are not in control...

You electrics are being used by unskilled untrained persons.!

That's a fair point.

 

[ianmacd]

But you wouldn't have to if it was part of a commercial installation. I am not trained every time I enter a commercial premises, as in McDonalds for instance, or the Co-Op over the road. So not training people entering my house makes no difference to the original fact.

But would you reasonably expect a customer at maccy D's or coop to be in a situation where they need the training? They certainly won't be connecting portable equipment to fixed wiring. Isn't that why 'slipery when wet' signs are used in these places?

 

[Lurch]

But would you reasonably expect a customer at maccy D's or coop to be in a situation where they need the training? They certainly won't be connecting portable equipment to fixed wiring.

Possibly not, and they won;t when they come round here either.

However, I am sort of on the fence now, I can see a bit more of both sides.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

But you wouldn't have to if it was part of a commercial installation. I am not trained every time I enter a commercial premises, as in McDonalds for instance, or the Co-Op over the road. So not training people entering my house makes no difference to the original fact.

But the shop you go into will have someone who is taking the responsibility to ensure the shop environment is safe for members of the public to use..

THEY are trained to identify the risks..

Some manager with have a 'Risk Assessment Folder' with all the likely things that a customer could 'balls-up' (technical term)

and if said customer did have a serious mishap..

Mr manager will be hauled over the coals for NOT following the risk assessment guidance and procedures!

(This is a similar reasons why all the ruddy schools close now when we get 1mm of snow... :_|

cuz they cant train all the kids to throw snowballs safely.

or make slides in the playground like we did as a kid! ] )

Any domestic property has NO legal obligations to train or risk ***** or appoint any heath & safety personal etc.. etc..

Which is why you cannot assume any domestic dwelling is supervised!

 

[SteveH37]

when i add new circuits in commercial / retail now, unless it's a bloody walls ice cream fridge or something daft, i put it on an RCBO, covers me "just in case"