Recent job

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

+1In my view dripping wet naked bodies and standard light switches don't mix, all it takes is a tiny dribble of water from a finger to get through the tiny narrow gap surrounding the switch module to touch live parts and deliver an electric shock.

Only if...

A) they haven't bothered to dry themselves as they step out of bath/shower..

B) they also happen to be clinging onto a nice earthy bit of pipe...

And not forgetting...

C) reasonably dry or just damp hands with bare foot on a wooden/carpet/lino/tile bathroom floor....

has minimal danger with a plastic switch...

Or...

D) They is just as much risk of someone with wet hands in a kitchen walking barefoot on a concrete floor to a metal decorative wall switch to turn under counter light on while they are doing the washing up..

or washing the veg when cooking !

:C

 

[batty]

Sorry SL I will have disagree with you on this to me it is just not right having a standard light switch in a bathroom. If you have youngsters I know you are supposed to watch them when they are in the bath but as they get older they may be left unattended and you cannot guarantee they will not splash that switch 600mm is not much of a distance so its possible this switch could get wet and an unfortunate person may get a nasty belt off it. Remember we are now making it possible to have switches in bathrooms as the circuit is RCD protected. What if the RCD is never tested and the time its needed it fails to operate. I will never put standard switches in bathrooms.

Actually just thinking more on this one if light switch is only 600mm from the bath you could actually turn light on in the bath now would that be a good idea? The more I think on this the regs are mad.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Sorry SL I will have disagree with you on this to me it is just not right having a standard light switch in a bathroom. If you have youngsters I know you are supposed to watch them when they are in the bath but as they get older they may be left unattended and you cannot guarantee they will not splash that switch 600mm is not much of a distance so its possible this switch could get wet and an unfortunate person may get a nasty belt off it. Remember we are now making it possible to have switches in bathrooms as the circuit is RCD protected. What if the RCD is never tested and the time its needed it fails to operate. I will never put standard switches in bathrooms.Actually just thinking more on this one if light switch is only 600mm from the bath you could actually turn light on in the bath now would that be a good idea? The more I think on this the regs are mad.

Spose we had better stop letting youngsters use the kitchen sink as well...

as we can have Sockets nearer than 600mm to a kitchen sink where little Freddy has decided to fill the bowl up and do the washing up..

And splash the socket and grab it with his wet hands....

Still cannot figure out how you can cope with an electric shower that can have water jets sprayed right onto it.....

All OK in a shower enclosure...

But a plastic light switch..

with non conducting plate and switch...

and a few internal intricately molded bits that actual conceal most of the live parts quite well....

Installed at least 600mm away from bath or shower....

(600mm is longer than the average child's arm?)

Is somehow dangerous??

Whats to stop this ringing wet child jumping out of the bath and running straight into the bedroom...

and turning on their bedroom wall light????

Note the OP refers to the light is 600mm from sink... NOT bath!

You can put a wall switch in a downstairs loo above the sink if you want...

You are entitled to your opion..

and I understand your concerns..

also personally I can't think of many jobs I have been on with a switch in a bathroom...

But I do recall one customer specifically wanted a wall switch.. large bathroom 2m+ from anything!

However...

in the interest of giving accurate information to all those reading the forum...

like it or not...

Providing it is appropriately located..

there is NO reg that says you cannot have a wall switch in the bathroom if you really want one!

:coffee

 

[baldelectrician]

My tuppence worth

Some electricians - me included can get carried away with the old school stuff like no switches in bathrooms

When we are asked we have to asess with regard to the current version of BS7671

So ;

Light switch in a bathroom in a correctly zoned area (compliant with BS7671 ), no code

No Bond on palstic pipe, not required as there is no need

Smoke detectors- escape routes as a minimum (what was the spec?)

 

[shed69]

There was a sea change in kitchens ...all at once it seemed, no one wanted to look at all the isolators on show . We always used to fit sw/spurs above, to feed sockets under w/top but no one wants them these days ....don't blame them TBH .

I use the hager grid switches with the engraved DP 20amp switches... Looks really well... Easy to do too, EG ring legs to double box supplying fridge, washer, tumble dryer ad dishwasher..

 

[PC Electrics]

I'm with Specs - regs wise there is no reason why one cannot have a plate switch in a bathroom (appropriately sited of course).

My objection to it would be based on a standard plate switch not being a waterproof item will suffer premature wear and/or corrosion from the damp. Some will be better than others in this respect (MK have a 'labyrinth' design behind the rocker for example).

But if it's what the customer wants,so be it.

If you're doing an eicr, no code.

Our friend here is looking for how he should reply to this criticism of his work. In this case we should stick to what regs require rather than personal opinions.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 12:12 ---------- Previous post was made at 12:10 ----------

For that matter, is a pull cord switch any better IP rated than a plate switch?

 

[Jono Pashley]

I used some "tile" switches a bit back they were VERY tidy but expensive. A pull cord would be of the same ip rating but water from your hand is never going to get into the switch and cause a shock via the pull cord.

 

[pewter]

Light switch in bathroom. Its almost as if we could use our common sense to decide if a location would be suitable.

My bathroom could have one and comply. As it is a small bathroom that gets steamy and used by a family of 4 i do not think it would be best suited in there due to moisture shortening its life span. As others have pointed out i do not think there would be any great risk to shock. The children been allowed drinks in there bedroom poses a greater risk.

My mothers bathroom is quite large and has a regular switch. If it had a pull cord it would look ridiculous. A single person with a large bathroom where water supply is 4+meters from the door does not need a pull cord.

Kitchen spurs, cooker isolation and appliance sockets-

I hate them on show, i think it looks awful. Especially if there is a nice splash back (like glass). I always try to get them in a cupboard area. My favorite is surface trucking and back boxes on the wall and the kitchen fitter can cut a neat little square out the back of the unit. If not fit it inside the unit.

I agree with everyone else the guy that did that EICR is a <*^7

 

[ElectekAir]

Just thought i would update you guys i have issued the customer a copy of the original cert so they can go ahead and rent out the property. And will be sending my reply to the other electrical company, customer and developer at the same time this week just annoying that i need to spend time on it i wish there was a system in place to test peoples ability to carry out an eicr

 

[Steve3948]

Putting isolation switches in cupboards does not fully comply to BS7671, and when I looked into this I found a total of 14 regulation references where it did not comply fully and decided that was enough.

The client wanted every isolator in a cupboard and only wanted twin sockets on view.

I noted it on the EIC as a non compliance at client and architect instruction.

A few months later the client phoned me to say the kitchen extractor hood was not working, she had tried the light and the fan and nothing.

I said is it switched on and she said where is the switch then, it's in the right hand wall unit behind the Frosties and Shreddies, where you asked for it to be put I said !!!!!

It proved to her why I was against it in the first place, had it been on and needed turning off quickly she would not have had a clue, same goes for the oven, hob, fridge, wine cooler, aga and steamer.

It is common now days, everyone wants to hide switches that will not be used that often, the job we are doing now, same request.

So it will be another comment on the EIC.

 

[ElectekAir]

Hi Guys can you please check this over before i send it, it is my responses to the electrical test

Following you recent test to the above property and your e-mail on its condition:

Firstly as of 01 January 2012 the Periodic Inspection and Test(PIR) was replaced by the EICR

and the coding changed to C1,C2,C3. Your company should be testing to the EICR

As per BS7671 regardless of the reason for the report there should have been a certificate

issued to the customer and the e-mail you sent with your findings is not a legal document

1. Main earth bonding to incoming water service

The main incoming water service is in PVC and does not require bonding according to BS7671

2. The hob and oven not having isolators

As we discussed on the phone it was a oversight by the tester as they are both located in the

cupboard above the cooker

3. The oven protective circuit breaker is incorrectly rated

The circuit breaker is there to protect the cable and fixed installation and not any load

connected to it.

4. Smoke detection

The smoke detection was authorised by the building control officer who gave a completion

certificate to the developer before sale.

5. None of the cables sufficiently terminated in the consumer unit

There is nothing in BS7671 to justify your claims and is just the personal preference of your

company

5 Cont.

There is however the regulations on maximum cable bend radius folding the cables over may

contravene this

6. Bonding at boiler

Why this has not been necessary for a long time now, all the pipework enters the boiler through

a manifold arrangement which is metal. As the gas is bonded at origin and is continues copper

surely all the pipework is connected at the boiler.

7. Lighting Switch in downstairs toilet should exceed 600mm.

BS7671 requires the switch to be located more than 600mm from the edge of a bath of shower

could you please state which one of the two the sink is.

8. 30Ma Dual RCD's fitted to consumer unit on a TT system (Should be 100Ma)

This is the most disturbing of all the points made on your report the 100Ma RCD is for a sub main

supplying the consumer unit and not to supply the final circuits.

If you replaced the 30Ma RCD's with 100Ma RCD's you would be breaching BS7671 and putting life

at risk.

It is at this point that I find myself questioning the qualifications, competence and understanding

of BS7671 that the Pearson undertaking the test has.

BS7671 and the EICR should be used for the electrical safety of an installation and not a way of

touting for business

Thanking you

 

[Manator]

You could shorten the whole letter to:

Following your recent electrical test, could you please provide all relevant regulation numbers to substantiate your findings.

Thank you.

 

[ElectekAir]

Yea I was going to do that but it would just drag out the whole situation

I however checked tonight if the company was with the scam provider they claim to be but 'no results found' so I sent the provider a email asking confirmation of their registration

They were not on the Competant persons register either

 

[Manator]

When dealing with disputes it is wise never to show all your cards at once, only respond to fact, and dismiss them one by one.

I had a similar situation very recently, a senior electrical engineer absolutely pulled my installation apart, he was wrong on every count but was trying to make a name for himself, I had to get manufacturers involved just to prove his incompetence, but I did it stage by stage.

 

[M107]

Ma or mA

 

[PC Electrics]

When dealing with disputes it is wise never to show all your cards at once, only respond to fact, and dismiss them one by one.

Oh, yes!!

When I was an R&D Engineer at JLR / RLR there were always others "in the wings" just waiting to rip your work apart; usually manufacturing engineers who had never even replied to all your invites to attend your design and development meetings for the previous 3 years!! And they used to like doing it in public (in a crowded manufacturing hall for example).

Don't get mad, get even!

Keep the emotion out of it. Don't get upset. Stick to the facts and make sure you can verify everything you say and write. These people usually crawl back into their hole once they realise you're cleverer than they are. I had one who didn't though. He kept coming back for more and every time I knocked him back. Eventually his own boss got sick of it and sidelined him!

 

[brummydave]

Hi Guys can you please check this over before i send it, it is my responses to the electrical testFollowing you recent test to the above property and your e-mail on its condition:

Firstly as of 01 January 2012 the Periodic Inspection Report (PIR) was replaced by the Electrical Installation Condition Report and the coding changed to C1,C2,C3. Your company should be doing periodic testing to the 17th Edition Amendment One of BS7671 and issuing an EICR.

As per BS7671 regardless of the reason for the report there should have been a certificate

issued to the customer and the e-mail you sent with your findings is not a legal document.

1. Main earth bonding to incoming water service.

The main incoming water service is in PVC and does not require bonding according to BS7671.

2. The hob and oven not having isolators.

As we discussed on the phone it was an oversight by the tester as they are both located in the

cupboard above the cooker.

3. The oven protective circuit breaker is incorrectly rated.

The circuit breaker is there to protect the cable and fixed installation and not any load connected to it.

4. Smoke detection.

The smoke detection was authorised by the building control officer who gave a completion

certificate to the developer before sale.

5. None of the cables sufficiently terminated in the consumer unit.

There is nothing in BS7671 to justify your claims and is just the personal preference of your

company.

There are regulations on maximum cable bend radius and folding the cables over may

contravene this.

6. Bonding at boiler

This has not been necessary for a long time now, all the pipework enters the boiler through an electrically conductive metal manifold arrangement. As the gas pipework is equipotentially bonded at origin and the system is entirely copper, this ensures that the system is safely and correctly bonded.

7. Lighting Switch in downstairs toilet should exceed 600mm.

BS7671 requires the switch to be located more than 600mm from the edge of a bath or shower. Could you please state which one of the two the sink is.

8. 30Ma Dual RCD's fitted to consumer unit on a TT system (Should be 100Ma)

This is the most disturbing of all the points made on your report the 100mA RCD is for a submain supplying the consumer unit and not to supply the final circuits.

If you replaced the 30mA RCD's with 100mA RCD's you would be breaching BS7671 and putting life at risk.

It is at this point that I find myself questioning the qualifications, competence and understanding of BS7671 that the person undertaking the inspection has.

BS7671 and the EICR should be used for the electrical safety of an installation and not a way of

touting for business.

Thanking you

I agree with the others that opening fire on all counts may be desirable but not necessarily the best action. Only you can decide on that as you know all the facts on the case.

As for your responses above, overall i think it deals well with your concerns. I like your comment asking them to explain how a sink is a shower or bath! According to some plumber friends of mine, a sink is only found in a kitchen anyway. In the bathroom it's a 'wash hand basin'

I have added a few words and full stops though and hope that it's useful. I've tried colouring most of the text where i've made a change.

I'm not sure at the beginning what you refer to by 'there should have been a certificate issued to the customer'. Did you mean with the original installation? Or had some works been done?

In the case of a Periodic Inspection, no certificate is issued anymore. Only a report. The EICR is a report of the condition rather than a certificate.

Hope it all proceeds satisfactorily.