Requirement For Rcd Protection, Ring Main, Hotel

[FatSteve]

Hello

Hoping one of you lovely people can help by clarifying something here.

Situation is a Hotel, 20 rooms, not recently rewired but has had some recent upgrades. There are three Dbs, which feed lights and sockets, and all circuits are protected by MCB Type B's.  When I enquired about Inspection, one chap said "it will be right" and another said that the boards would have to be changed to RCD to pass the EICR. Does the regulation regarding sockets and RCD apply retrospectively?

Thank you

Fat Steve

 

[ProDave]

While it's good practice to have RCD's changes in wiring regs are not retrospective. So if it complied with the regs when installed you cannot force them to upgrade, just advise.

The simplest way to upgrade is change the mcb for an rcbo. you don't have to change the whole CU. that's often a much cheaper solution that the customer is more likely to accept.  That's what I normally do when upgrading or altering a circuit.

 

[Steve3948]

Do they need RCD protection ??

 

[Sidewinder]

Steve,

Normally my question!

However, if these sockets are feeding a ring final circuit in guest bedrooms, then TBH, IMHO, it would be a brave person that filled in a Risk Assessment that said they were not required!

Remember, you don't "HAVE" to put the RCD "in" the distribution board, and as has already been said, RCBO's are available.

A possibility here depending on layout would be to split each room into a single ring circuit, protect this by a local RCD, and feed the RCD's from the original ring circuit.

That way the RCD only protects the room in question, the over current protection is provided by the original circuit, for all rooms, it is obviously adequate as it is OK now.

You are not reducing the CSA so no need to introduce additional over current protection, unconventional, yes, very, in breach of regs, I don't believe so, possible, not a clue as I don't know the layout!

 

[Steve3948]

Well I would have thought building maintained by skilled people, no sockets intended for outdoor use, so what purpose is the RCD/RCBO for.

Laptops most likely item that would be plugged in by Joe Public is class 2, and tea making facilities should come under PAT.

I would say not a requirement but if clients wants them then ok.

Same in offices with many PC's last thing you want is power going off unexpectedly.

From a risk assessment point of view I don't see any risk under normal conditions, however if things go on inside the hotel room that should not, that involves items that include electric and damp conditions, then maybe

 

[Sidewinder]

To be honest Steve, it is the latter that would concern me!

What I see is that a guest locked away in their room, you as the person responsible for the building have no control over what they do or what they plug in.

They will almost certainly be unskilled, after all the majority of people in the UK are.

So, with this safety device available, and easily installable, plus, the hotel itself being a place of work, thus, a requirement to maintain under PUWER98, this means that the RCD's would be tested every 3m else the responsible person would be committing a criminal offence under PUWER98, & HASAWA.

So, I believe that you would need to be very brave not to use one on the room sockets for use by guests.

 

[Steve3948]

This would be a preference and not a requirement for EICR though would you agree.

The way I see it the EICR is for the fixed installation and you cannot be responsible for outside the scope of things.

A bit like a car, it's 100% safe but if you drive it faster than you should it's dangerous and could lead to death, this does not make the manufacturer of the vehicle guilty.

I think if it was RCD sockets in each room or RCD/RCBO say above door in each room then maybe that would work, but if in a plant room or service cupboard and the trip goes at 3:30am I don't see the night porter doing much.

 

[Sidewinder]

I do think you could code this a C3 on an EICR, with a bit of clever wording and research, I believe you may just be able to swing a C2, depending upon other circumstances, & the situation with the install.

I would like to see a narrative on the EICR with regard to this regardless of which code it is given.

Again the location of said RCD/RCBO could be an issue, I agree.

TBH, IMHO, the night porter should be trained to reset such devices, in conjunction with the room resident, i.e. the room resident unplugging all their devices, the porter disconnecting all the hotels, then re-energising, and re-instating devices in a controlled sequence.

Whilst these can be a nuisance in this scenario, I agree, the safety benefits, could, just outweigh the inconvenience.

However, someone needs to be on site to deal with these things, think disabled, infirm, elderly, full hotel, no where to move them to, no power in the room, got to get it sorted.

Whilst sockets would not totally incapacitate a room, they could be a major inconvenience.

Was with a kidney patient yesterday, also a partial amputee.

They have a lift outside their home to get them from street level to their home level.

His partner & him were concerned if he got stuck half way up/down on the lift, outside, in the rain, my answer was simply 999, Fire & Rescue Service.  IMHO, that would be one time they would be needed, being infirm, immobile and stuck in a chair outside in the rain in the sort of weather we have been having, it would not be long before he would start with hypothermia.

In a hotel, you could have a similar scenario, but, being a fee charging business, they should be able to exhaust all reasonable options internally first, if they can't then they need an agreed call out time from a competent person, then on to the FRS.

 

[Badger]

off topic a bit but heres my opinion id rather use a socket that had rcd and over current protection than no protection from a rcd device, as i value the equipment im using and myself plus other users i think it should be mandatory that rcd protection is used in socket circuits especially guest houses, commercial and inductrial on portable equipment cause at the end of the day the device will only trip if there is a problem with either the appliance or circuit so therefore no problem = no tripping, if it trips theres something wrong!

 

[Sidewinder]

Not quite Badger, some industrial stuff has designed in earth leakage, thus unusable on a 30mA RCD, and yes, it could be portable!

 

[Doc Hudson]

Costly option, but individual RCD sockets would protect unskilled guests and give no inconvenience to others as there is no need for protection to cables in walls.

Doc H.  

 

[Badger]

Not quite Badger, some industrial stuff has designed in earth leakage, thus unusable on a 30mA RCD, and yes, it could be portable!

oh ok i dont do industrial unless cctv so didfnt realise that (apart computers that it)

 

[Sidewinder]

Quite Doc, but, you know what even though I fit a LOT of these, in fact I've got 8 to fit the week after next, I don't like them!

Oh, and yes I agree they are expensive.

I've also had a lot of them go faulty, and well known brands.