Restoring Norton Ghost Image

[Sidewinder]

OK peeps, some help & suggestions please.

I have a "broken" HDD in a control.

I have a Norton Ghost 2003 image of the disk when it was good on a CD.

We do have an installable copy of Norton Ghost 2003.

The "broken" disk is not bootable, the hardware that the disk is in, is "not" a standard PC, so I can't just pop another disk in and install another OS on it.

I don't have the original bootable CD created when the now faulty HDD was Ghosted.

The hardware that the disk goes with, won't run another OS & ghost to do a restore, well it has refused all day.

A "normal" PC doesn't seem to want to run the restore either.

I have tried to create Ghost virtual partitions to boot from & restore on an alternative PC with no joy.

A MAC won't run the SIemens 840D software, and it won't run under Linux either.

Replacing the machine or control is not really a viable option.

Being an 840D it's not just the front end that needs to be replaced, it's all the drive & motors too, realistically.

No Siemens Service until tomorrow, but, I know what their answer will be and it will be expensive, and, won't be a full solution as it won't include the machine builders OEM customisations in the way of the machine parameters.

The machine OEM does not have a parameter file for the machine, as it's been modified by muppets unknown.

Hence the reason for the Ghost backup.

Anyone got any useful, helpful ideas please?

 

[steptoe]

any use?

there are other ways,

but thats the first windows version I found,

I had to google that too, 

 

[Sidewinder]

Saw that earlier Steps, it relies on the disk being restored to, being the primary HDD.

Thank you.

I have to restore to a disk in a USB caddy.

The image is on a CD, the OS being used to restore the image is on a laptop and the internal HDD.

The disk being restored to, is in an external USB caddy.

The dist to be restored to won't boot at all.

It's all just a bit awkward!

I must admit i played with Ghost many years ago (2002/2004 ish) - It was great at making a backup, however i tested the backups with respect to restoring a HDD image - i never succeeded - After a day or more of wasted time and stress I binned Ghost and moved to CloneZilla which i still use today and has never let me down.

Sorry not much help and you may be stuffed.

Unfortunately I didn't make the image Siemens did.

The Ghost image is the only existing data for the machine.

 

[shanky887614]

OK peeps, some help & suggestions please.

I have a "broken" HDD in a control.

I have a Norton Ghost 2003 image of the disk when it was good on a CD.

We do have an installable copy of Norton Ghost 2003.

The "broken" disk is not bootable, the hardware that the disk is in, is "not" a standard PC, so I can't just pop another disk in and install another OS on it.

I don't have the original bootable CD created when the now faulty HDD was Ghosted.

The hardware that the disk goes with, won't run another OS & ghost to do a restore, well it has refused all day.

A "normal" PC doesn't seem to want to run the restore either.

I have tried to create Ghost virtual partitions to boot from & restore on an alternative PC with no joy.

A MAC won't run the SIemens 840D software, and it won't run under Linux either.

Replacing the machine or control is not really a viable option.

Being an 840D it's not just the front end that needs to be replaced, it's all the drive & motors too, realistically.

No Siemens Service until tomorrow, but, I know what their answer will be and it will be expensive, and, won't be a full solution as it won't include the machine builders OEM customisations in the way of the machine parameters.

The machine OEM does not have a parameter file for the machine, as it's been modified by muppets unknown.

Hence the reason for the Ghost backup.

Anyone got any useful, helpful ideas please?

http://www.symantec.com/connect/blogs/ghost-explorer

here you go.

get a copy of aomei autobackuper it is a lot better than ghost (ive used ghost and many others in the past)

if you need to make an iso bootable i highly recommend you download a tool called "unetbootin" it makes it easy.

anyway if the new drive isnt bootable then that could mean there isnt an mbr on it, there are ways to restore it.

is it a windows machine if so which version

 

[steptoe]

ok,

so, if you are unsure what HDD it will end up writing to, could you not get a donor machine and put your HDD as the 'only' HDD on that machine then boot from DVD drive?

dunno how that version works, but the linux versions work as a normal 'live dvd' and let you chose the HDD you wish to use.

 

[shanky887614]

this should work and will let you view it straight from nortons servers ftp://ftp.symantec.com/public/english%5Fus%5Fcanada/products/symantec%5Fghost%5Fsolution%5Fsuite/2.5/updates/Ghostexp-B1597.zip

technically worst case scenario you can copy and paste that on another hdd.

if you install a program called easybcd you can use it to install a bootloader on the external hdd so it will be bootable

 

[steptoe]

here's an idea,

go into BIOS on the laptop and disable the internal HDD, unmount it in BIOS before you boot from DVD, that way the only HDD on the laptop is the USB one,

 

[Sidewinder]

http://www.symantec.com/connect/blogs/ghost-explorer

here you go.

get a copy of aomei autobackuper it is a lot better than ghost (ive used ghost and many others in the past)

if you need to make an iso bootable i highly recommend you download a tool called "unetbootin" it makes it easy.

anyway if the new drive isnt bootable then that could mean there isnt an mbr on it, there are ways to restore it.

is it a windows machine if so which version

I don't use Ghost, I use Clonezilla, I didn't create the image, as I said above, it was done by Siemens Service.

The drive wasn't bootable, and wasn't recognised in the BIOS.

Removed the disk & copied it, & took an image, but not with Clonezilla as I didn't have a copy with me at the time.

Original disk read OK in USB caddy on Xp & 7, but, showed file system errors on the boot partition.

Stored the original disk so at least I had that to work from.

Tried a repair on the partition showing errors, loads of bad files and file names so it was obviously a corrupt primary partition, however the extended partition & the 3 logical drives in that are still there, so I have the fundamental disk configuration.

I can explore the Ghost image without too much of a problem through Ghost 2003, so I can extract the files, it's just ensuring that the disk configuration is correct.

I can restore the MBR through Linux easily, I've now dug my Linux repair machine out.

The sticker on the HMI says Xp Embedded, but, the boot sequence, and the dialogue boxes look more like NT4.

In fact I think, it's a DOS 6.x boot sequence which then piggy backs out to NT4 on another partition.

It has a FAT16 primary, and 3 extendeds, it, seems, with a logical drive in each, one FAT16, & 2 NTFS.

It's not a "normal" computer.

Typing error last night it's an 810D, in an XYZ VMC.

It's got a PCU50 front end, which is what I am trying to recover.

It looks like this:

ok,

so, if you are unsure what HDD it will end up writing to, could you not get a donor machine and put your HDD as the 'only' HDD on that machine then boot from DVD drive?

dunno how that version works, but the linux versions work as a normal 'live dvd' and let you chose the HDD you wish to use.

I could look at a donor machine, but it wouldn't be the same type, it would have to be a normal PC, plus time is an issue, it's a breakdown, it's taken long enough to source replacement disks for it!

 

[Marvo]

Wow, this is a blast from the past, I used to use Ghost quite often in the days of Win95 and 98. If i remember correctly you can only restore certain ghost HDD backup images onto another harddrives of identical size and disk geometry. I'd suggest trying to create a virtual drive which is identical to the original then try running the ghost image onto it. Finally, if that goes successfully (and that's a big 'if') you could then make another backup of that drive in it's entirety using a more modern drive imaging app and that should then be installable on almost any drive.

Note, if the original drive was IDE you make hit further issues if you're trying to install to a newer SATA drive.

Good luck, I think you're gonna need it.. 

 

[Sidewinder]

The machine won't accept a SATA drive, only an IDE anyway.

The Ghost image has been a pain.

Got it booting into the machine HMI, but, that is now falling over on load.

I can't boot the original system with anything other than the original disk, easily.

So no chance of booting from a Ghost boot disk and restoring the image.

Plus it's a Ghost 6.x or 7.x image.

I cloned the original faulty disk and got the disk partitions, just two of them were corrupt.

I have run Windows chkdsk on the corrupt partition, as it was a FAT16 Windows file system.

I then deleted all the corrupted files and replaced them with "sound" copies from the year old Ghost image.

I then went into Ubuntu & deleted all the rubbish that Windows had written to the partitions!!!

Then deleted the stuff Unbuntu had written to the partitions.

I then compared the numbers of files and directories under Windows on the 4 logical drives with that in the Ghost image.

I could extract all the files from the image using Ghost 2003, it has a gho explorer built in.

I then went back into Ubuntu and checked for rouge file entries, none.

So now the machine boots so far, but there is an HMI error, there are a few posts about it on Siemens support, so tomorrow looks like back to site refit the HMI then follow the guidance from Siemens, and hope that I can sort it, some of the guidance is in German, my German is rusty as I've not been there for so long & I left the German company in 2006.

I have 4G but the client has shut down their Wi-Fi as they were having issues.

Plus a domain and no wired points nearby.

I'll have to see, it could now be an S7 or actually an NC control hardware issue rather than an HMI thing.

 

[shanky887614]

Correct Marvo - I remember now a load of hassle i had was the disk had to be like for like - sectors and everything

Complete pile of garbage - Just like windows and NAV

Doesn't help SW though  :innocent

thats one of the reasons i went to aomei its not fussy.

does it need to be the original physical machine? could you run the hdd image in a virtualmachine in a modern pc with usb passthrough etc till you can get a modern replacement

 

[Sidewinder]

thats one of the reasons i went to aomei its not fussy.

does it need to be the original physical machine? could you run the hdd image in a virtualmachine in a modern pc with usb passthrough etc till you can get a modern replacement

The PCU is the machine HMI, the rest of the control uses the PS/2, RS232, & MPI ports on the PCU, to communicate with the RT OS system running the NC kernel, & the PLC.

There is only 1 USB on the PCU & thats not used for anything!

The HMI "talks" to the hardware at a very low level.

Also a VM would be too laggy.

So, it's either a new disk from Siemens, I would guess >£1k, then, the software, probably a few £k, then, the machine has to be set up from scratch again, as all the machine parameters are on the disk, the machine has been modified since it left the OEM, so their parameter file, if they still have it, ain't going to be PnP!

Plus there will be a cost for that.

To swap out to another control, will be £20-30k+ as it's 611D's which are integrated with the CNC, so we'd have to stick to Siemens, of it's 4 servo drives, 4 permag servo motors + a 30kW spindle.

Not really an option!!!

I've just got to stuggle on, then, once I have a good boot & the machine runs, get a tidy image onto another hdd.  I can use TrueImage, or Clonezilla to get that.

Then all will be well, as long as we take note of any MP changes made.

I've got as far as the HMI software starting to load, so things are progressing.

Plus I have proved the PCU will read an alternative brand of hdd, as long as it's partitioned correctly.

 

[shanky887614]

The PCU is the machine HMI, the rest of the control uses the PS/2, RS232, & MPI ports on the PCU, to communicate with the RT OS system running the NC kernel, & the PLC.

There is only 1 USB on the PCU & thats not used for anything!

The HMI "talks" to the hardware at a very low level.

Also a VM would be too laggy.

So, it's either a new disk from Siemens, I would guess >£1k, then, the software, probably a few £k, then, the machine has to be set up from scratch again, as all the machine parameters are on the disk, the machine has been modified since it left the OEM, so their parameter file, if they still have it, ain't going to be PnP!

Plus there will be a cost for that.

To swap out to another control, will be £20-30k+ as it's 611D's which are integrated with the CNC, so we'd have to stick to Siemens, of it's 4 servo drives, 4 permag servo motors + a 30kW spindle.

Not really an option!!!

I've just got to stuggle on, then, once I have a good boot & the machine runs, get a tidy image onto another hdd.  I can use TrueImage, or Clonezilla to get that.

Then all will be well, as long as we take note of any MP changes made.

I've got as far as the HMI software starting to load, so things are progressing.

Plus I have proved the PCU will read an alternative brand of hdd, as long as it's partitioned correctly.

is it an ide or a scsi drive? you should be able to get a new drive for less than a grand.

it will probably be worth sending the hdd to a proper recovery firm, they can read directly from the platers and get the info off it as long as it is just the motor inside the drive that has failed and hopefully the read head hasnt damaged it or anything is corrupted beyound recovery.

(i doubt there will be a hdd on the shelf in the country that will be a direct replacement now except for nos on a shelf somewhere)

 

[Sidewinder]

Hi shanky,

Sorry, I haven't replied, I've been working stupid hours.

Still struggling with this disk!

It's a 2.5" IDE/PATA drive.

Yes I can get a drive for less, but you can't buy the software anywhere, it is simply not available as an installable item.

You have to buy the disk from Siemens with the software pre-installed, then you have to get the machine data files from the machine OEM, and add those to the disk when it's in the machine.

The thing is the machine OEM don't think they have the files we need.

However, the control is obsolete, so the disk is a service part which means that it will be 2-3x the original cost when it was a current spare, if, it is even available.

If we use a data recovery company, they won't guarantee a repair, and if they miss even one file, then the machine still won't run, and we can't re-install the software to repair it.

Even if we get a new disk, and the files from the machine OEM, then they will have to be modified to the current state of the machine which can take days.

I have got very close to getting it going, and I know exactly what needs to be done to do it, and I have all the parts and info to do it, I am being stopped by the control BIOS.

I need to enable the FDD in the BIOS, which is fine, I do this, save the changes to BIOS, then restart, go back into the BIOS and it's disabled again.

It was at this point I corrupted the copy disk I was "playing" with, so I've been rebuilding a new copy ready to carry on.

Took a little longer than I hoped, as I managed to select the wrong disk in Ubuntu when deleting the partitions, so I deleted the windows drives off the laptop I was using to repair the disk!

Got the windows drives back & got Ubuntu back on that laptop now, just finally sorting the disk on that out this morning, then I'll look to clone the control disk again and try it.

There are 3 outstanding things I can't sort, which are because it is the master partition, i.e. primary boot that has become corrupted.

1. It boots fine into NT, but won't boot into DOS, where the recovery tools for the disk are located, and they are there, because I have put them back there.  I can edit the BOOT.INI file and do various things, but it won't boot into DOS of the HDD.

2.  When it boots into NT, the NT interface is not accessible, as it is overwritten by the machine HMI, I can't stop this from happening, thus, I can't make any changes to NT live as it were to change the start up/boot options as I don't have access to the NT interface.

3.  The machine HMI won't complete it's initialisation, if I can get it to do that, then I don't care really about the rest, because I'll then clone the disk with Clonezilla, & use the clone in the machine and put the good disk in the safe, and keep a Clonezilla image on my Synology for the customer.

Getting fed up with it now.

 

[shanky887614]

Hi shanky,

Sorry, I haven't replied, I've been working stupid hours.

Still struggling with this disk!

It's a 2.5" IDE/PATA drive.

Yes I can get a drive for less, but you can't buy the software anywhere, it is simply not available as an installable item.

You have to buy the disk from Siemens with the software pre-installed, then you have to get the machine data files from the machine OEM, and add those to the disk when it's in the machine.

The thing is the machine OEM don't think they have the files we need.

However, the control is obsolete, so the disk is a service part which means that it will be 2-3x the original cost when it was a current spare, if, it is even available.

If we use a data recovery company, they won't guarantee a repair, and if they miss even one file, then the machine still won't run, and we can't re-install the software to repair it.

Even if we get a new disk, and the files from the machine OEM, then they will have to be modified to the current state of the machine which can take days.

I have got very close to getting it going, and I know exactly what needs to be done to do it, and I have all the parts and info to do it, I am being stopped by the control BIOS.

I need to enable the FDD in the BIOS, which is fine, I do this, save the changes to BIOS, then restart, go back into the BIOS and it's disabled again.

It was at this point I corrupted the copy disk I was "playing" with, so I've been rebuilding a new copy ready to carry on.

Took a little longer than I hoped, as I managed to select the wrong disk in Ubuntu when deleting the partitions, so I deleted the windows drives off the laptop I was using to repair the disk!

Got the windows drives back & got Ubuntu back on that laptop now, just finally sorting the disk on that out this morning, then I'll look to clone the control disk again and try it.

There are 3 outstanding things I can't sort, which are because it is the master partition, i.e. primary boot that has become corrupted.

1. It boots fine into NT, but won't boot into DOS, where the recovery tools for the disk are located, and they are there, because I have put them back there.  I can edit the BOOT.INI file and do various things, but it won't boot into DOS of the HDD.

2.  When it boots into NT, the NT interface is not accessible, as it is overwritten by the machine HMI, I can't stop this from happening, thus, I can't make any changes to NT live as it were to change the start up/boot options as I don't have access to the NT interface.

3.  The machine HMI won't complete it's initialisation, if I can get it to do that, then I don't care really about the rest, because I'll then clone the disk with Clonezilla, & use the clone in the machine and put the good disk in the safe, and keep a Clonezilla image on my Synology for the customer.

Getting fed up with it now.

the reason why i said use a repair company is a lot will open the drive and scan it directly to get the data off if they need to.

its a shame but with these kind of computer controlled programs you really need at least two backups of it, ideally kept in seperate backup locations. online is a good idea as a lot of the companies like crashplan backup there servers daily so you know the files will have multiple copies on there end.

backing it up onto a couple hard drives and then storing them is a good idea as they are so cheap now.

DO NOT I REPEAT DO NOT buy an external hdd the first thing that goes in these things is the chasis if your unlucky the one you pick wont have a sata connection directly on the hard drive or it will have its own filesystem for the external hdd which would mean you would need an identical case.

a standard 3.5" or a 2.5" hard drive with a hotswap bay to plug them into is the best scenario (ive got two drives for backups one lives in my machine then everytime ive done a backup i swap it with the one stored in a storage case nearby)

 

[Sidewinder]

The issue with storage companies is that they won't really know what we are trying to recover.

It's all well and good storing online if the system is connected to a network, most stand alone machine tools are not.

This one is not, and there is a legacy problem with the software in that the network settings are not able to be changed, a bit like the floppy drive settings!

I have an external HDD, and I hope that my Synology 2413+ chassis does not fail any time soon!

It's not practical to swap out disks in this machine as it's an hour to strip out and replace the disk, so by the time you take the machine out of production, shut it down, clone the disk, refit the clone, start it up, put it back into production, that's half a shift gone.

A hot swap bay would be full of steel swarf in a week in this environment, so it's a non starter tbh.

 

[shanky887614]

The issue with storage companies is that they won't really know what we are trying to recover.

It's all well and good storing online if the system is connected to a network, most stand alone machine tools are not.

This one is not, and there is a legacy problem with the software in that the network settings are not able to be changed, a bit like the floppy drive settings!

I have an external HDD, and I hope that my Synology 2413+ chassis does not fail any time soon!

It's not practical to swap out disks in this machine as it's an hour to strip out and replace the disk, so by the time you take the machine out of production, shut it down, clone the disk, refit the clone, start it up, put it back into production, that's half a shift gone.

A hot swap bay would be full of steel swarf in a week in this environment, so it's a non starter tbh.

hotswap bay for your laptop i mean, the backups dont need to be regular just need to be checked regually.

for example if you had a checksum of it for example an md5 you could then check the backups on the two locations from when it was installed.

if the backup got altered when it was stored the md5 of the file will have changed on the drive.

could you not put another ide cable in and loop it through somewhere so that you can get to it easier to unplug it without completely dismantaling the machine?

 

[shanky887614]

I have used one of these hdd repair / data recovery companies twice now - useless in my limited opinion - the never got anything back 

I wouldn't ever recommend or use one again

they work but usually only if the motor for the drive head has failed, in that case they can completely recover the drive (its not unheared of for the motor for the drive head to fail)

a hard drive is the same as a record player inside with a disk and a readhead that is moved backwards and forwards with a motor

 

[Sidewinder]

The machine re-writes its software every time it boots.

Every time the operator writes another CNC programme, or changes a tool offset to compensate for tip wear the change is written to disk so the MD5 hash would change perhaps 20 times per day.

It is unfortunately a useless way to do it!

As good as it initially sounds, it still takes over an hour to get the disk out, then you have to have a laptop set up with a caddy, and the MD5 WILL be different, so you are back to taking the machine out of production for half a day every time you check the disk.

SO plus travel time back and fore site, you are talking about a £300 backup how often?

I need to get the baseline data back, and get a clone of the disk working that I can store in their safe & on my Synology,

That way, the NC progammes can whistle, as long as we have the OS, HMI OS & the machine parameter files.

 

[shanky887614]

The machine re-writes its software every time it boots.

Every time the operator writes another CNC programme, or changes a tool offset to compensate for tip wear the change is written to disk so the MD5 hash would change perhaps 20 times per day.

It is unfortunately a useless way to do it!

As good as it initially sounds, it still takes over an hour to get the disk out, then you have to have a laptop set up with a caddy, and the MD5 WILL be different, so you are back to taking the machine out of production for half a day every time you check the disk.

SO plus travel time back and fore site, you are talking about a £300 backup how often?

I need to get the baseline data back, and get a clone of the disk working that I can store in their safe & on my Synology,

That way, the NC progammes can whistle, as long as we have the OS, HMI OS & the machine parameter files.

no what im saying is an md5 of the backup file that way you can tell if the backup file you have stored away has been compromised.

if the backups md5 has changed one one of the backup drives then you know to use the other one where it hasnt changed if you ever need to restore it.

this way you can delete the compromised backup and replace with by making a copy of the good copy from the other backup drive