Rules for RCDS/RCBO's in a domestic installation

[Andy™]

here's an example for you guys then.Whilst testing these student lets I found that the interlinked smoke alarms that had been fitted by an alarm company into all the bedrooms and communal areas had no cpc continuity as they had been cut out! Now obviously I failed this for the numerous reasons, MCB would fail to trip, no earth return path .......basically NO protection in the event of a fault etc. I told the landlord who was very helpful to be honest but wanted me to speak to the alarm company about it as he had paid them a lot of money to get this done by law.

The guy from the alarm company said that they didn't need an earth as they were a class 2 fitting and double insulated and thats why there was no cpc connected between them.

OK then, you have 8 students living in a terrace property, each having their own room aswell as the living room, kitchen etc. It aint their house........what happens if they throw a wild party and trash the place?! including smashing down the smoke alarms because they are annoying when they go off for all the green they are smoking! Then you'll have 230V cables within reach with NO CPC.............a drunk student showing off to his flatmates will probably think it's a good trick to say "Watch me whilst I touch these wires!"....................DEAD! Who's fault is it now!!!!

RCBO or RCD wouldn't trip, MCB wouldn't trip etc. Who's Duty of Care has it become? Landlords? Fire Alarm Company? or the Electrician who PIR'd the property and missed it or "let it go"?????????

Risk Assessment guys!!!! Always with a rental, think of the worst most unlikely scenario as it may happen!

RCDS and RCBO's are a MUST in Rentals IMO.

whilst i dont agree with what the alarm company has done with the earths, it will not stop the RCD operating if they were to touch the live in the way you suggested. and the MCB would also work as it should in case of L-N short.

 

[WarrenG]

I've just had a NAPIT registered electrician come to inspect my house (i'm going to be renting it out) and has failed me because there is (and I quote) 'no earth leakage unit' present in board'. Does a DB in a home have to have a certain amount of RCD's RCBO's? I know that you do if you have any outside electrics, which I don't - my house just consists of the bog standard downstairs ltg, upstairs ltg, downstairs ring main upstairs ring main, kitchen and bathroom ciruits. The electrician informed my wife (who was the only one at home at the time) that it would be cheaper to install a brand new board (we have a Crabtree Loadstar).Can anyone advise please? Many thanks :C

It sounds like you need to speak to the professional electrical inspector that has carried out the report directly, after all that is what he/she is qualified to do.

You haven't stated what type of report that has been carried out?

As said, limited information given here on a forum isn't going to answer your questions but the inspector will have had an insight into the overall safety condition of your installation.

If he/she has deemed the installation 'Unsatisfactory' then they have concerns for its continued use and remedial repairs are likely.

Your interprtation of 'bog standard circuits' doesn't really take into account that they are safe?

Just because they work, doesn't mean they are safe.

I'm sure if you call the inspector they will gladly explain what they have found and what is required to bring your installation upto standard.

 

[Andy™]

also depends on earthing type. if its TT then its dangerous without any RCD's

 

[steptoe]

[quote name='Andy

 

[mikep]

The CPC is there and it should be connected, common sense tells you it should be connected, the Regs say that it must be terminated correctly even if it is at the end of a run ! surely it is easier to connect them to continue the the protection given by the CPC in case of the cable gets chopped, do these installers chop them off at every enclosure or terminate them separately with no continuity through the circuit length. I doubt it, they must just cut them back !! "wrong"

 

[batty]

A case of a little knowledge is a dangerous thing shame they don't just stick to low voltage stuff and maybe thats it they don't understand electrics.

 

[PC Electrics]

Scott, did you inform that alarm company of the error of their ways???

As a point of order: an RCD does not need a cpc to perform it's intended function as additional protection against electric shock.

Chaps: I notice we've not heard anything back from our orbiting friend.

 

[phil99]

I've just taken the NICEIC "periodic inspection report" (PIR) course.

Any sockets likely to be used for portable equipment outdoors gets you a code 2 observation on the PIR. Any code 2 generates an unsatisfactory report. I know this wasn't always the case, but according to the electricity safety council's (ESC) latest guidelines, it does now.

You could get RCD protected socket faces for downstairs sockets - not cheap, maybe an RCBO.

The ESC's guidelines have been toughened up principally because nobody in the rental sector was acting on code 2 fails - which could in the past give a "satisfactory" on the report

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 18:41 ---------- Previous post was made at 18:37 ----------

Ignore above - just posted to wrong thread

 

[Sidewinder]

here's an example for you guys then.The guy from the alarm company said that they didn't need an earth as they were a class 2 fitting and double insulated and thats why there was no cpc connected between them.

Risk Assessment guys!!!! Always with a rental, think of the worst most unlikely scenario as it may happen!

RCDS and RCBO's are a MUST in Rentals IMO.

S60 Spot on mate, also here is another one to throw at the alarm company!

The residence is rented by a person with a sight heart defect, no one is aware of this, however, it makes them more susceptible to electric shocks.

They decide to do some DIY, they bang a nail through a cable bridging L&E, as the cpc is not connected this does not create a fault path.

Thus the rcd does not trip as the building structure is sufficiently insulating to keep the leakage low enough.

Now the unsuspecting DIY'er decides that they will hang something from the nail they are barefoot on a aluminium steps which has no rubber feet, they contact the now live nail suffer a 24mA shock that stops their heart, they die before anyone can help them.

Could the alarm company wriggle out of that?...

I doubt it!

IIRC and I ain't checking but, I believe that cable cpc's MUST be continuous regardless of the class of appliances right to the end of the circuit to comply with the regs, common sense and minimum standards.

I'm sure some other bod with a regs book close can verify.

 

[Evans Electric]

If we could put aside the possible 8 students who may or may not throw a party and may possibly smash the smokes off the ceiling while allegedly smoking pot and possibly drinking too much, and the fact that one them may be an immature show off who impresses his mates by connecting himself to the mains and could well kill himself. ( And in that instance I do not think for one minute that the court would rule against the person who installed the smokes but didn't connect the earths ) Just my opinion .

The point of this thread is establish the legal requirements for renting a property , I admit that I don't know what they are and would only say that the electrics should be in a good and safe condition , the minimum of an RCD added to the plugs and shower and an adequate smoke detector system in place.

I can see where guys are coming from with their opinions but we should try to remember a few things .

1) We are not the Electric Police.

2) We are not the owner /client and can't make them do what we think should be done,

3) The latest regs are not retrospective.

4) We are not responsible for idiots smashed out of their heads on alcohol and class A drugs who interfere with electrical installations.

Installing smoke detectors is the remit of the owner not the sparks , along with a fire escape and safe gas appliances. etc.

5) We can only advise .

Back later , Amanda Redman is .....erm....I mean New Tricks is on.

 

[NHES]

I do alot of domestic pir's and i go straight to the db and no rcd protection = unsatisfactory within 30 secs of me being through the door i get very annoyed with landlords that say its been ok for the last 30 years with all the diy efforts that have been done. Page 13 of the esc best practice guide 4 issue 2a states 'absence of RCD protection for portable or mobile equipment that may be reasonably be expected to be used outdoors' = code 2 also esc landlords guide to electrical safety is very good with excellent advice. The sooner pirs become compulsary the better for get db changes more like complete rewires

 

[Sidewinder]

NHES,

Whilst I like your ideas, and basically agree, you would need to back this up with reg numbers as well as the ESC info really.

Could this be done?

BTW, I'm not having a go, I'm trying to promote discussion, so please don't take this wrong!

 

[NHES]

No basically, and i see your point so i dont take it wrong it's good to see other peoples input. What i've said in relation to pirs is the standard i've set myself when i carry them out, i've worked for about 5 different estate agents over the last few years and i've got 2 who are regular and like the way i carry out pirs while the other 3 did'nt like the awkward conversations with there clients the landlords from what i had picked up on the report