Small Socket Fire In Newbuild House Info Needed

[anth1987]

Hi i have just bought a newbuild house in the north east of england. I have had an electrical problem with my downstairs sockets keep tripping the trip switch and rcd switch. I have traced this down to a live wire been sliced into by the electrician leaving the metal cage behind the socket fascia screws loose causing a small fire behind the socket when it has cut through the live wire. I am after some info on weather its acceptable for two earth wires in a socket to be ran through 1 sheathing drilled through one hole behind the socket. Does this break iee rules? Need some info before i play holy hell with persimmon homes. Regards Anthony

 

[anth1987]

I have pics i can email to help with my question if anybody can help as i require 10 posts to add a link in message cheers

 

[Manator]

Welcome to the forum, it is hard without pictures to give any definitive answer. The purpose of the 10 posts is to stop the forum from being spammed by advertisers and the like.

Any cable passing through any accessory should be protected from damage, this is normally provided by a rubber grommet. If the cable was damaged by the screw plate that is another matter. All electrical installations should be tested and passed as safe to use. A copy of those test results should be provided to the person ordering the works, (the house builder) and the user (you) .

This problem should have been shown during these mandatory tests, in this case an insulation resistance test. This shows any defect in the insulation between all cables present on any particular circuit.

All new homes are fully covered by insurance from the house builder, so report your findings and demand that they are rectified properly.

 

[NozSpark]

I don't know why you don't just go mad at them? As it's a new house they will be liable and its also covered by the NHBC cover

 

[Steve3948]

Seen painters unscrew faceplates and pull forward for painting then turn 90 degrees, making a right mess of things, when they screwed them back they hit cables with the faceplate screws.

We will not fit back until painters have finished and bag them up instead.

 

[a3]

I have pics i can email to help with my question if anybody can help as i require 10 posts to add a link in message cheers

Try now - I have upgraded your account - the 10 post limit is to stop spammers.

 

[binky]

2 earths in one sheath is not an issue, can't comment on the rest without seeing pics

 

[anth1987]

Cheers for the replies guys... ive had a sub contractor out for persimmon homes as i did go mad to customer services as i have an 18 month old baby in the house and they said at first having no downstairs electric is not a high priority.. until i had a look at the sockets and found the following pics. i also found another socket with the earth wires pushed into the socket and not tight. Electrician found 5 loose live wires in 9 sockets hes checked for the time being.... please see the link for photos kind regards

http://s1377.photobucket.com/user/anth1987/library/Mobile%20Uploads?sort=3&page=1

Im a mechanic by trade so pretty hands on so i was horrified that this could have been a lot worse and hearing that 5 live wires were loose at the sockets in my home i am tempted to go down the legal route with them.

 

[kerching]

Thats rough!

Cannot be ar$ed to trim the sheath back

Ditto...........................to fit two bits of earth sleeve

Ditto............................dress cores back into socket

Looks like he just shoved the plate back without dressing the cores first and the slack was squashed against the fixing screw

Found quite a lot on price work where no one seems to be bothered.....could be the painters refitting the plate, but the ones i have seen are not paid enough to loosen box screws.

If there from the start then it should have shown up on the testing ( if any was done) i would have thought

Just saying

 

[anth1987]

The back plate screws by the looks should be counter sunk flush. They were all left loose hence why the screw has chaffed through the cable causing the short to ground. I am appalled at the shoddy workmanship in my home. The live wire that shorted was not bent and just pushed back straight probably causing the wire to chaff against the loose screw. Looks like it was even painted around so wasnt removed. As i say the electrician found another 5 loose live wires in other sockets and i found a loose earth in a living room single socket

 

[NozSpark]

A counter sunk screw will not tighten down flush especially when they are fixed to thermalite block.... They are almost impossible to tighten any screw tight into.

As for loose wires at the socket plate, that is just wrong and should have been picked up on

 

[anth1987]

I was under the impression they would be screwed into a wall plug not just into the wall. Well they didnt do a very good job and wouldnt suprise me if it wasnt tested and just passed through a rush build for completion. Extractor fan in kitchen wasnt wired up when i first moved in and i though that would have been noticed on a electrical test hence why i think it wasnt done properly

 

[NozSpark]

Yes it should have need screwed into a Rawl plug, but thermalite blocks are like Swiss cheese when fixing things to them.

The extractor (hood) might not have even been fitted when the electrics were tested :|

 

[anth1987]

I was told the house shouldnt have been signed of by nhbc without a working extractor fan in kitchen by the site manager when i mentioned it so it makes you wonder when you see shoddy work like this what the rest of the electrics are like in the house. I will be demanding a full electrics retest on my house for piece of mind as 6 wiring faults on 9 sockets checked is not what you want to hear

 

[kerching]

screws direct into thermalite!   rough as!

how long until things start working loose?

NHBC may have a spec as to how things have to be fixed  to the building, but I wouldn't hold my breath, sorry.

Not all sparks are like that, unfortunately some slip through the net and unfortunately you have found this out the hard way. luckily there appears to be minimal damage

 

[Sharpend]

The facts are that the cable has clearly shorted and thus tripped the breaker on power up, the question has the core been damaged perhaps even broken therefore not completing the ring? The cable should've been re terminated to fresh core as even if it hasn't broken but remains damaged its current carrying capacity is likely to have been reduced, it's possible that it's not broken and has been tested and complied on results as in many new builds the walls are still drying out when the electrics are tested, therefore readings can be slightly off what you'd expect on a new dry house.

A sign of the poor standards.

 

[anth1987]

Yes could have been alot worse thankfully it never caught fire. I will be taking this up with the developers head office tommorow as i am foaming that my family has been put in danger not just in this 1 socket that shorted out but another 5 sockets with loose wires which could all result in a fire or electric shock. And theres still alot of sockets that havent been checked over yet. Thanks for your input on this situation. Kind regards

 

[OnOff]

Bear in mind that if you ask for an "electrics retest" (you want an "Electrical Inspection Condition Report") on the house the developer may well assign the same shoddy outfit who did the install to do the EICR i.e keeping it all "in house" and quiet.

Did you have in the documentation provided when you bought the house an "Electrical Installation Certificate" with attached "Shedule(s) Of Test"?

 

[ProDave]

I think we can all agree that's not the best workmanship we have seen.

To me, it looks like the cable was actually pinched under the screw that was holding the back box in, so that makes it doubly poor.

Thankfully it's a quick and simple repair.

The only thing to decide is do you want the builders back again?  Or would you prefer to pay a local electrician to go round and check all the accessories and make sure they are all okay and there are not any more horrors lurking.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Hi i have just bought a newbuild house in the north east of england. I have had an electrical problem with my downstairs sockets keep tripping the trip switch and rcd switch. I have traced this down to a live wire been sliced into by the electrician leaving the metal cage behind the socket fascia screws loose causing a small fire behind the socket when it has cut through the live wire. I am after some info on weather its acceptable for two earth wires in a socket to be ran through 1 sheathing drilled through one hole behind the socket. Does this break iee rules? Need some info before i play holy hell with persimmon homes. Regards Anthony

iee rules...?   hmmm..

BS7671 is non-statutory..  just guidance for good practice...

so don't hold your breath on pursuing anything significant down this avenue.

Now herein lies your problem...

1/ Builders want to construct as many houses as possible for as little money as possible..

2/ Numerous trades are subcontracted out, further subcontractors squeezing every last penny out of the contract whilst reducing the build time to as short as possible...

3/ The sub contractors doing the electrical work probably have a gang of part skilled cable bashers supervised by one or two with a few electrical qualifications...

4/ The "Testing electrician" maybe with a few extra qualifications and a few extra years experience.. probably had to come and test and sign off a whole group of houses in one day...

5/ If he/she finds any snags or problems this slows down their progress and target for the day and possibly their pay??

6/ If the same people come back to re-check their own work.. they are unlikely to say their own work is poor!

7/ If a.n.other contractor who also works with the builder and knows the original electrical contractors comes back to recheck, they may be reluctant to give a poor image of either builders quality control or the other contractor as this may affect future work!!

8/ I certainly wouldn't go in all guns a blazing saying you have had a fire behind a socket.. 

TBH it looks to me more like a brief spark as wires shorted out..

But the fusebox did its job removing the power to isolate the fault.

9/ It is a sad fact of life that newbuild properties are built for speed and cost, almost any and every aspect of a property can have dodgy workmanship.. from plumbing / painting / carpentry / brickwork / window fitting / roofing / driveways / gardens / kitchens / bathrooms etc.. etc.. AND electric's..

a long snagging list is NOT uncommon!!

10/ you need to work out the best way to get remedial work or monetary compensation from the builder for you to put right the snags you have found...

But don't go burning your bridges making yourself unpopular in case you find other snags later that you then need to go back and open up further negotiations

11/ As has been suggested I think you need a thorough independent inspection of all outlets fittings and switches to verify they are all safe..

maybe half to one days labour for someone to come and check it all out..

12/ Although the work may be poor quality..

you are unlikely to get any fires or shocks as the fusebox should have RCD protection as well as overload protection and that should remove the power pretty darn quickly in the event of a fault.

13/ Don't forget that before going to the builder it may be best to decide what you actually want as a solution so you know what you are aiming for, rather than just having a who's to blame argument..

As Kerching often says...

you can only have two out of the three with  "Good"  "Quick" or "Cheap"

New build properties usually go for 2 & 3!!

:coffee