socket to sink distance

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Firstly...http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2006/SamTetruashvili.shtml

As for the NIC, I take their views with a pinch of salt (which may help things along here)..

I'm sorry Specs, but A 2V drop in your IR voltage reading is hardly convincing, especially given the output impedance of the meter in the first place..

Connect an AC ammeter in series as well, just to prove my point..

Then add some impurities and see the improvement, but 10's of Amperes will never flow, however other contamination factors/worn outlet (previous arcing) etc may contribute to a more conductive path, but I still doubt it could trip a 32A mcb..

; \

As your link is mostly relating to "Ultra pure water"

so not sure what relevance it has here???????

If you read a bit of your own link......

Semiconductor manufacturing uses ultra pure water with extremely low levels of contaminants for applications such as wafer processing and the manufacturing of flat panel displays and precision disk drives.

Ultra-pure (distilled) water is not a very good conductor of electricity. However, water

containing dissolved ionic compounds will conduct water because the cations (+ ions) and

anions (- ions) are freed from their attachment to each other be the dissolution process.

If your source of flowing water contains variable amounts of ions in solution, its

electrical conductivity will likewise vary because the aquated ions are the charge carriers

in solution. When the ion concentration is elevated, the water will show higher conductivity

than when the ion concentration is lower.

Pure water containing no ions is an excellent insulator, but not even "deionized" water is completely free of ions. Water undergoes auto-ionisation at any temperature above absolute zero. Further, because water is such a good solvent, it almost always has some solute dissolved in it, most frequently a salt. If water has even a tiny amount of such an impurity, then it can conduct electricity readily, as impurities such as salt separate into free ions in aqueous solution by which an electric current can flow.

I don't get ULTRAPURE water out of my taps...?

If your water was such a good "Insulator" I wouldn't be getting 248+v coming through it?

one side of meter 0v

one side of glass 248V+

other side 250v+

drop 2v across glass.

As you say doing a bog standard low voltage resistance test reading is high..

but stick a bit more voltage behind it...

The fault I went to last Friday tripped a 10a type B MCB cuz of and exposed bare end of cable getting wet?

must be passing 10A+ ???? (minus whatever lights may or may not have been on!)

check post #3 here....

http://www.talk.electricianforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1210

but I suppose you could try and convince my customer that her lights didn't go off???

As for the NIC, I take their views with a pinch of salt (which may help things along here)..

I am afraid I would have to take this as a bit of an arrogant statement M8! :|

(but I aint gonna let it spoil a friendship... we can agree to disagree if needs must! :x )

It does not matter whether you like or dislike the NICEIC......

Common sense would suggest they must have a few staff with higher qualifications than either you or I have got...

And their tech manual info must have been verified with more than one source???

I still stand by my earlier post bud :x

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Just to add re: "Water not conductive"...???

http://www.laboratorytalk.com/news/qcl/qcl175.html

Knowledge of water quality is critical to understanding which management changes are necessary for long term plant productivity. Precise, easy to read measurements are therefore important.

This is available in a quality product, such as the Orion 3-Star conductivity meter and Orion conductivity probe.

http://www.kittiwake.com/Default.aspx/ProductSection/90/ProductSubSection/106/ProductSubSubSection/247/Product/513

The conductivity of water provides an indication of the quantity of dissolved material present. Water conductivity measurement is dependant upon a wide variety of inorganic substances or dissolved solids in water solutions. Common dissolved substances are sodium, chloride, sulfates, calcium, bicarbonate, nitrates, phosphates, iron, and magnesium. All of these materials at certain concentrations have the ability to carry an electrical current.

In general, water with high concentrations of dissolved solids is defined as salty while water with low concentrations of dissolved solids is considered as fresh. Salinity is the total of all salts dissolved in water, usually expressed in parts per thousand (ppt).

If water, even with impurities will not conduct electricity then these poor sods will be out of business soon me thinks!? ?:

Indeed it also begs the question why Rooms containing a bath or shower are special location????

one of the reasons... water perhaps??? those NICEIC people again I'm afraid..

Locations containing a fixed bath or shower and the surrounding zones, described in this topic, are considered to be locations where there is an increased risk of electric shock due to:

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

300mmJust finished a new build, installed everything as per the drawings .... what happens? The kitchen installer decided to move the sink and is now only 98mm from the damn sink!

UNBELIEVABLE!

Absolutely m8!

Have seen this myself...

which is why I put in my earlier post..

During a kitchen re-fit, a larger or repositioned sink may become closer to a socket outet.... but as wiring has not been moved... no compliance issues with BS7671 may be raised or considered???

{I thought I had posted this reply once already.. But cant find it???

perhaps I wrote but didn't press post???

or maybe it is somewhere else.. sorry if it is! :_|

Beer kicking in a bit 2:00am!

nearly time or bed!!! :O] X( :x:^O:^O}

 

[extension15]

Water on its own is not a good conductor in it's purest state...

Just out of curiosity, I will conduct my own tests.

I think you have misunderstood what I am getting at, I don't recall think I've actually said Water is an insulator....

I think you've taken the argument to extremes..

:|

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Water on its own is not a good conductor in it's purest state...Just out of curiosity, I will conduct my own tests.

I think you have misunderstood what I am getting at, I don't recall think I've actually said Water is an insulator....

Apologies if I have misunderstood m8... :|

I just took your previous statement from earlier post..

and water is a bad conductor, even when contaminated

I read 'bad conductor' to mean more of an insulator.. as in PVC is a 'good insulator' or 'Bad conductor'? :|

I think you've taken the argument to extremes..

:|

I'm only taking other "experts?" knowledge as a reference. :x

as in your ultra pure water references..

NICEIC reference.

Wiring regs guidance for bathrooms shower rooms etc..

Those links I added re bod's who make instruments for measuring water conductivity...

I was just confirming that your average water in and around your house has the ability to pass electric current under fault conditions and appropriate care should be taken. {especially for other spark's / trainees etc who may be reading but not posting}

I was not trying to be extreme!

 

[extension15]

Apologies if I have misunderstood m8... :| I just took your previous statement from earlier post..

I read 'bad conductor' to mean more of an insulator.. as in PVC is a 'good insulator' or 'Bad conductor'? :|

I was just confirming that your average water in and around your house has the ability to pass electric current under fault conditions and appropriate care should be taken. {especially for other spark's / trainees etc who may be reading but not posting}

I was not trying to be extreme!

firstly no apology required.. :x

secondly, water is a bad conductor, it is impurites that contribute to its conductance..

Yes wet hands will improve one's ability to get electrocuted, combined with body salts etc..

I attached 2 probes to a small beaker of TAP water, spaced at 50mmm and connected to a Power supply (30V DC)...

16mA flowed..

Adding various items to the water increased conductivity to about 60mA.

However acid might be a much better conductor...

Extension15

 

[ABC Technical]

I have always used this rule of thumb, if size of kitchen allows.

If both the sink & area that the customer wants their socket can both be touched at the same time, they are deemed to close & therefore unsafe.

Not a regulation AFAIK just something that I have always done.

As for the impurity of water thing, try adding SALT to your glass of water.

Please let us know of your findings then.

 

[extension15]

As for the impurity of water thing, try adding SALT to your glass of water.

Please let us know of your findings then.

As I quoted earlier..

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

For example, if the conductivity of VERY PURE WATER is 0.000004

conductivity units, the conductivity of a saturated solution of common

table salt NaCl is 23 conductivity units, and the conductivity of a typical

metal such as copper wire is 60, 000, 000 conductivity units.

Extension15

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

firstly no apology required.. :x I attached 2 probes to a small beaker of TAP water, spaced at 50mmm and connected to a Power supply (30V DC)...

16mA flowed..

Adding various items to the water increased conductivity to about 60mA.

However acid might be a much better conductor...

Extension15

indeed! :x

If we aren't carfull...

couple of probes(plates)..

suitable acidic watery solution..

sticking a 30v charge....

we might invent the battery here!!! ; \ :^O:^O:^O:^O

or even... electroplating at a long shot!!! :|

I think this is now getting far to scientific for this forum...

(or my evening relaxing beer drinking brain)...

I like ABC's & Theorys summaries..

1) if both sink & socket can be touched simultaneously.. try and move em apart!

2) As always commons sense should prevail!

p.s.

I do like them 50mmm! mili-mili-metres!! ; \

 

[extension15]

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

 

[ABC Technical]

Aploogies for skimming through, I did not even see your section on the SALT mate.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Just as at the end of the news..

they normally have the more light hearted new items..

We could finish this thread with a nice little schoolboy's practical illustration..

Apparatus:

1 x 230v Supply

3 x Bits of wire

1 x Small tub of Tap water

1 x Light bulb and holder

1 x El-cheepo Maplins Multimeter

Method:

Connect a circuit from supply through tub of water, then to bulb, & back to supply.

Connect multimeter between Neutral and the tub of water, (set on AC voltage).

wired like this

Switch on power.

Results:

The light lights.. electricity travels through tap water.

It can be seen that the water was at 215v ac potential with ref to neutral.

Conclusions:

The tap water conducted mains electricity..

Because 215v is above the generally accepted safe 50v touch voltage

and is almost within the acceptable supply voltage range 216v-253v...

DON'T PUT YOUR FINGER IN THE WATER!!! :^O :^O

Comments:

The tub is plastic & approx 50mm square,

the tap water had no additives.. (as supplied by Mr severn & Mr trent!).

Other points for consideration:

Why hasn't Spec Loc got something better to do.? :|

Why isn't he working out the cost for the quotes he should be writing? ?:|

Why has he used RED wires for LIVE AND NEUTRAL connections to the snap block?

Why is he so easily led into fruitless exercises by Extn 15!? :^O

DISCLAIMER:

Children please do not try this at home!.. Ask an adult for assistance ; \

 

[Theorysparky]

Because yr watching the cricket !!!!!

 

[ABC Technical]

I think that after this you should be nominated for the position of forum nutty professor spec loc.

Howz about it Admin?

 

[a1]

Could you do the florrie one too and take some pics for me please Specs?

Connected resistor and two testers to see the Amperage before (on the manufacturers' resistor) and after (the resister that you have added) and note the Current difference. (two seoerate switches - I believe? I only had a quick glimpse in college).

I think that and the one that you did above should be in the "Private" forum.

 

[a1]

Other points for consideration:

Why hasn't Spec Loc got something better to do.? :|

Pass.

Why isn't he working out the cost for the quotes he should be writing? ?:|

Because he like to help the up and coming sparks to keep his name "Special". :x

Why has he used RED wires for LIVE AND NEUTRAL connections to the snap block?

I did wonder. Maybe he hasn't any left in stock.

Why is he so easily led into fruitless exercises by Extn 15!? :^O

I think Ext15 was a bad influence in his school days too. ]

 

[extension15]

Why is he so easily led into fruitless exercises by Extn 15!? :^O

Mmm.....

Water (pure) in it's own right is a very bad conductor indeed (an insulator)..

(Tap) water is a poor conductor in true electrical terms compared with most metals..

Water (saturated with salts, that is no longer water in the true sense) is a good conductor..

; \

Extension15

 

[ABC Technical]

Mmm..... Water (pure) in it's own right is a very bad conductor indeed (an insulator)..

(Tap) water is a poor conductor in true electrical terms compared with most metals..

Water (saturated with salts, that is no longer water in the true sense;-)) is a good conductor..

; \

Extension15

Yup, thats the electrolytical property of salt water, very much like sweat. :^O

 

[extension15]

Yup, thats the electrolytical property of salt water, very much like sweat. :^O

Well the original point was the flooding of a electrical point, not the imminent death of some innocent bystander..

I'm a bit perplexed, that the majority seem to be taking the *

Goodnight...