TT Earth and Neutral Voltage.

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la poste

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Just out of interest if a TT system is installed with a decent earth rod what sort of voltages flow down the Neutral in respect to real earth potential of 0 Volts?

What's the average Neutral to Earth voltage, does it fluctuate from time to time?

Does it get dangerous???

Thanks.

 
Just out of interest if a TT system is installed with a decent earth rod what sort of voltages flow down the Neutral in respect to real earth potential of 0 Volts?What's the average Neutral to Earth voltage, does it fluctuate from time to time?

Does it get dangerous???

Thanks.
Firstly, voltages don't 'flow' anywhere. :)

With regard to a potential difference between the neutral and 'true' earth (0v), it would depend on the current flowing in the neutral conductor and it's resistance.

Say you measured the voltage between your MET (true earth off your rod) and the incomming neutral conductor at the cutout.

If we take the star-point of the transformer as being at 'true' earth potential as well, and we have 20 amps flowing from the cutout to the star-point.

If the resitance of the supply neutral is 0.1 ohms, then the volt drop between the cutout and the star-point would be 0.1 X 20 = 2 volts.

In other words the potential difference between the cutout neutral and the MET would be 2 volts.

Now I've just made this up - whether it's true or not, we'll soon see by the reaction:D:innocent

 
ADS,One thing at a time please!
? ? ?

I didn't ask the question:innocent

I did write my reply really quick and hit 'submit' though, so I'm bound to have overlooked something.

 
Lets assume an uninterrupted fault at a property.

The earth loop impedance at the house is 200 ohms.

Lets break it down

Assuming the line impedance is zero.

The Ra of the house is 180 ohms--- The Ra of the transformer earth is 20 ohms

So 230v/200 =1.15 amps

Voltage dropped at house = 1.15 x 180 = 207 volts

Voltage dropped at transformer = 1.15 x 20 = 23 volts

So all installations connected to the neutral of the transformer will see a voltage of 23 volts between the neutral and true earth

 
I suppose this thread is a little in tow with some comments an other thread, regarding double pole isolation.

 
Lets assume an uninterrupted fault at a property.The earth loop impedance at the house is 200 ohms.

Lets break it down

Assuming the line impedance is zero.

The Ra of the house is 180 ohms--- The Ra of the transformer earth is 20 ohms

So 230v/200 =1.15 amps

Voltage dropped at house = 1.15 x 180 = 207 volts

Voltage dropped at transformer = 1.15 x 20 = 23 volts

So all propertys connected to that transformer will see a voltage of 23 volts between the neutral and true earth
This doesn't make sense to me at all - for a start, no one mentioned a fault and Ra shouldn't come in to it. :)

Let me try to explain my way of thinking a bit better.

We have the Rod that the OP has installed at 'true earth' potential - 0 volts.

We have our incomming 'Line' and 'Neutral' at the cutout - we'll use nominal, so 230v.

NO load:

If we take a 'voltage' reading between 'L' & 'N' we should get roughly 230v

If we take a 'voltage' reading between 'L' and the 'rod' we should get roughly 230v

Neutral to the 'rod' should read 0 volts.

If we then switch some appliances on in the house, applying a load of, say, 12 ohms, and we assume an impedance in the supply neutral of 0.1 ohms.

This will give a total impedance from the cutout(Line) to the star point of 12.1 ohms.

Current flowing therefore = 230 / 12.1 = 19 A.

Volt drop across 'load' (installation) = 19 X 12 = 228 v

Volt drop across supply Neutral conductor = 19 X 0.1 = 1.9 v

So the potential difference between the Neutral connection at the cutout and the star-point(true earth 0 v) is 1.9 v - the same as it will be to the 'rod' (also 0v)

So,

If we take a 'voltage' reading between 'L' & 'N' across the load, we would get 228v.

If we take a 'voltage' reading between 'L' and the 'rod' we should get roughly 230v

Neutral to the 'rod' should now read 1.9 volts, as there is a 19 A current flowing.

This is one reason that they 'rod' the PEN conductor at regular intervals on a PME supply - to hold the Neutral at 0 v.

 
This doesn't make sense to me at all - for a start, no one mentioned a fault and Ra shouldn't come in to it.
It should make sense, in effect its no different from what your saying, just different scenarios. I just decided to mention an example where a fault exists, and Ra does come into it in my example:)

 
Thanks guys.

It doesn't seem that there is anything to worry about then.

With voltages that low in the neutral there is no risk of a serious electric shock and double pole devices on a TT installation seem unneccessary.

 
Thanks guys.It doesn't seem that there is anything to worry about then.

With voltages that low in the neutral there is no risk of a serious electric shock and double pole devices on a TT installation seem unneccessary.
:slap

:coat

 
Only time you ever reply to posts is to ridicule.Tell me.

Why are you even interested in forums?
that is I hope you will find by reading through the forums very much incorrect

Thanks guys.It doesn't seem that there is anything to worry about then.

With voltages that low in the neutral there is no risk of a serious electric shock and double pole devices on a TT installation seem unneccessary.
unless it is (and this is only my opinion) an idiotic statement like that.!

that is the difference between knowing how to wire something (like Bob down the pub)

or knowing how NOT to electrocute people (like a spark)

 
Thanks guys.It doesn't seem that there is anything to worry about then.

With voltages that low in the neutral there is no risk of a serious electric shock and double pole devices on a TT installation seem unneccessary.
La poste,

It's not the 'voltages' in the neutral that you have to worry about - it's the current.

The neutral is tied (referenced) to earth and should never be to far away from 0 volts (we hope:pray) BUT.....

...the minute that neutral is disconnected from earth (e.g. removing an 'on-load' neutral from the neutral bar), it's potential to earth can rise to 230v and the current that it was carrying (say 10A) will want another path - probably through you;)

 
ADS,

No can about it mate, it will rise to line voltage and the current will cease to flow until the circuit is re-made possibly through you as you say!!!

 
So what's the answer?

Double pole everything?

The system allready has an earth rod, split load dual rcd board, double pole RCBO's to protect external circuits IE garage and garden shed, is about to have a 100ma time delayed RCD as the main switch.

The board has been wired so that there is no chance of an live incommer touching an earth cable within the board.

So on a TT system should every single switch be double pole just for safety? Every light switch, etc.

I mean, where do you draw the line?

 
So what's the answer?Double pole everything?

The system allready has an earth rod, split load dual rcd board, double pole RCBO's to protect external circuits IE garage and garden shed, is about to have a 100ma time delayed RCD as the main switch.

The board has been wired so that there is no chance of an live incommer touching an earth cable within the board.

So on a TT system should every single switch be double pole just for safety? Every light switch, etc.

I mean, where do you draw the line?
?

I dont understand this bit?

so you have RCDs and RCBOs protecting the same circuits?

or is this high integrity?

 
?I dont understand this bit?

so you have RCDs and RCBOs protecting the same circuits?

or is this high integrity?
High integrity although not sure of the expression. The RCBO's are protecting different circuits to the RCD's on the main board. Three separate circuits are protected by three separate DP RCBO's.

The rest of the house is protected by a Wylex dual RCD board.

I read a horror story about the live incommer touching the earth bar on a TT and realised that this fault is as bad as a lost neutral on PME IE everything attached to earth would become live and no safety device would detect it and it could remain live and undetected for quite some time hence the need to buy a 100ma time delayed RCD as the main switch to protect the tails and main board. Nearly

 
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