Unidentified Potentially Live Cable.

[arunciblespoon]

I was wondering if there was a 'spike' like they use on the supply side available for small flexes like this...

I can't find one.

Andy. Yes it was live. And finding the other end of the cable after I made it not live took about an hour.

 

[Blue Duck]

Or a WAGO box?

Or a jam jar with some stuffing glands ? :slap Or just some tape...

 

[Sharpend]

If you found this South African plug thingy couldn't you just unplug it?

 

[arunciblespoon]

The plug thingy was only found after fiteing through the rats nest post dangerous incident. I made a bad judgement call. All for a two pound wagon box.

The cable had been laid there like this for three years best guess following a machine replacement.

Wago box. Silly spell checker.

 

[arunciblespoon]

But my question is still....

A cable has a cut end. You do not know where it is fed from. It disappears into box section metal bar and emerges with several others which disappear left right and up higher than you can access. Putting it in a tape or wago box makes it safe (OK I should've done this first) but how do you know when or if it is dead. Let's say it is dead and the other end has also been cut and in known to you pushed into the box section. When do you decide to strip it all back to get safe access to the cores? How do you know the other end might not get plugged in as this one clearly was when you don't know where the other end is?

 

[ProDave]

What is this "box section" you keep mentioning?

Trunking?

Report the unsafe situation to your boss and tell him you want a complete shut down to unravel all this unsafe wiring?

 

[Andy™]

a non-contact voltage tester would tell you if its live or not. or, depending on condition of end, it may be easily possible to use a contact type voltage detector

 

[arunciblespoon]

No think a girder but with square section. A square tube. Welded seam used to make structural stuff. Like angle iron. You can't open it. In this instance clearly used as trunking. Its not uncommon in factories and machines. Often a fish wire is used to pull a bunch of cable tied wires through.

Andy I agree it will advise me its live. But it won't tell me which of the four nearby 144 way boards its fed from. I appreciate I could flick each trip one by one until I found it. But this is a task that really needs an assistant. Not available.

I could strip and bare the cables if I had insulated tools and rubber mats etc. But I don't. This is why I laid out my tools in the o.p.

Plus volt stick is not available. I didn't have one. Will do soon mind.

 

[Apache]

This should not be hard.

A non contact voltage tester would give a good indication if live or not.

If not sure and outer insulation OK then test using a simple multimeter with insulated leads in good condition.

These are simple tools most DIYers own.

If it was proven live then I'd have covered the end with insulating tape, and hunted where it went.

Heat shrink another option. Heat shrink end caps exist.

http://cpc.farnell.com/_/shwrsfm11mm/heatshrink-end-cap-11mm-black/dp/CB16139?in_merch=Products%20From%20This%20Range

 

[arunciblespoon]

I like the shut down idea!

Let me put the mindset in place.

We have no earthloop impedance tester

No RCD tester.

Too expensive.

Consequently nothing is certificated.

When I have requested one I have been laughed out of the office. (How much?!)

Pointing out the regs gets reactions like 'you are being too technical. Just do it' but the minute I do something wrong, like I have they are on my back.

This time it seems rightly I agree.

This is not uncommon in factories.

 

[Blue Duck]

Where do you work? A sweatshop?

 

[steptoe]

This is not uncommon in factories.

20+ years ago perhaps,

nowadays I need about 10 forms signed in triplicate just to change a lamp/lightbulb,

usually......

:shakehead

 

[kerching]

20+ years ago perhaps,

nowadays I need about 10 forms signed in triplicate just to change a lamp/lightbulb,

usually......

:shakehead

I work in a lot of shopping centres/Malls/whatever you want to call them

Paperwork? PAPERWORK!

I think it equates to about 1 tree per job.....( is this why they use a logbook?....No? )

Anyway, a a couple of weeks ago.....10 minute job to swap,out a faulty smoke det head in a Retail Unit. This system is NOT connected to the Mall system...there is a separate det in the store which links to the house system

Paperwork took30 minutes on the way in and 10 minutes on the way out

The "round trip drive" was 5 hours

But it was worth "the coin"

Just saying

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

So how many written reports have you given to your employers about the lack of correct tools and equipment to work safely?

Remember you as a competent person have a duty of care to yourself and others who could be endangered by your actions...

Deliberately making an "earthy" part live...

without knowing what sort of protective device is on the other end of the cable is a bit reckless to say the least...

Even when doing RCD test we need to be aware of not potentially exceeding 50v touch voltage on earthy parts...

I suspect both yourself and your employers are breaching H&S...

The more you go along with it..

the more safety procedures and good working practice they will expect you to breach....

and if ever the brown stuff does hit the fan I think you could be in it just as deep as well !

I would think very carefully about what you are doing..

Unless you have written evidence to back up your case,

should you ever end up in court with the Health & Safety executive breathing down your neck. 

:C

 

[kme]

If you don`t have a clue which of the "4 nearby 144 way boards" supply this unknown conductor - and its been sitting there for gawd knows how long - then the premises ( which "currently doesn`t have any certification") is NOT a safe working environment. HSE would have a field day with this.

In the first instance. The property needs to have an EICR done, to determine how bad things are ( if you`ve found this ; what else have you NOT found????)

Cost doesn`t come into this, in any way, shape or form. It MUST be done.

To your original question. 

If I`m alone, as responsible person, and don`t have the necessary on my person to make the end safe; then everyone else is removed from the area / building ( as I consider appropriate), until such times as I have located and remedied the dangerous condition.

 

[Sharpend]

Isn't that just common sense?

 

[arunciblespoon]

Had my meeting today.

Our h+s manager rollicked me (rightly) over banging it out.

We will be issued with volt sticks and live working stuff( gauntlets tools) to strip and prep end of cable. He saw the cable end with its hairy wires and agreed with me that to handle this would have been in itself a shock hazard. The fact that all my stuff was 10 mins away went in my favour because I would have had to leave it for that time unattended. Barriers would have been OK except for the same reason too far away from storage point. So even now there is the chance we will be presented with a live part and have to leave it. The answer to that was stay with it until someone passes and get them to fetch barriers.

As to isolating when they were shown the route of the cable.... 'Who the hell did it like that' consensus was to find it was like a needle in a haystack.

So a lesson learned. A procedure implemented. Tackle ordered.

All in all a good outcome.

Thankyou for putting me straight over my foolishness.

An eicr was ordered and knocked back for price because it came under planned maintenance regime. This has been shown to be nonsence and the eicr is being reordered.

 

[zimmy]

Dear Blue Duck, I think you'll find a 'volt stick' is a dam good tool (you even suggested it?) as long as your know how it works and what it can do and what is has problems with.  As with any bit of kit, if you don't know how it works... don't use it!

I'm more than wise to that, but thanks anyway.  The cable in question was a 3-core flex.   The VS would be a safer tool to use than trying to stick a voltage indicator in an open-ended flex.  Point of interest... a multi meters is NOT recommended by the HSE (or me for that matter) 

Strip and inspect the ends of a suspect LIVE cable... ******* nuts!   No wonder the trade is in rags.  Your H&S man needs to be sacked. 

 

[pickleye]

We were taught at college that a multimeter must never be used due to the possibility of setting it incorrectly, or misinterpreting the display.

That apparently is the hse stance, along with the whole GS38 test leads and safe isolation procedure.

 

[arunciblespoon]

My h+s man said I was right to leave it alone.