VDE Tools

[binky]

Are you going to answer my question?

The answer to that is carefully. Once on the roof, good scaffolding with toe boards provides protection from anything that might drop off the roof - I went through several scaffolders until I found one who installs it the way we needed it. The ladder is always the most risky element, but can't be eliminated, but we used to get a half platform on the scaffold, two short ladders is a lot safer than one large one, and much easier for lifting tools, and removing any debris from the roof. The main materials, ie rails and panels, everyone was involved with lifting, so everyone knew exactly where everyone else is, so Hi Viz would make no difference to that, hard hat, debatable as no one was stupid enough to stand directly under gear being lifted.

Brings me to another true story. Commercial PV installation where roof access internally was too small for panels, and as the roof had a low wall around the edge, we couldn't use a telehandler. So plan was to hire a scissor lift as we had a nice expanse of flat tarmac right next to the building, only to be told by site H&S bod that we can't do that as scissor lifts are not designed to lift materials, OK, so people and tools don't weigh anything?

 

[binky]

Just to lighten the mood a bit:

View attachment 15474

One of my neighbours found out that the hard way a few weeks ago. He had a 3 part ropey old step ladder fully extended, and taped up with masking tape which wasn't long enough to reach the guttering of his house. So he had mounted step ladder on one section of small tower platform on soft ground in his garden. Unfortunately he had placed a plank of wood across the platform to stop the ladder slipping off at the back end, furthest from the house, so basic physics says force down through ladder will be outside the footprint of the platform. I had just walked out of my house when he attempted to climb the ladder. He had just got to the guttering, when platform toppled over backwards and dumped him on the floor having bounced of his satellite dish on the way down. Net result, two broken teeth and a smashed elbow. The guy is a builder, in his own words ' he was in a hurry'.

As far as ladders go, anything that is higher than 2 parts of my 3 part ladder gets scaffolded these days, and 2 parts only get used if actually safe to do so, and for short jobs only, like changing a lamp.

 

[Andy™]

As far as ladders go, anything that is higher than 2 parts of my 3 part ladder gets scaffolded these days, and 2 parts only get used if actually safe to do so, and for short jobs only, like changing a lamp.

similar for me - one of the main reasons for buying a scissor lift. save working from ladders & mobile scaffold (and building it) as much as possible

 

[Andy™]

One of my neighbours found out that the hard way a few weeks ago. He had a 3 part ropey old step ladder fully extended, and taped up with masking tape which wasn't long enough to reach the guttering of his house. So he had mounted step ladder on one section of small tower platform on soft ground in his garden. Unfortunately he had placed a plank of wood across the platform to stop the ladder slipping off at the back end, furthest from the house, so basic physics says force down through ladder will be outside the footprint of the platform. I had just walked out of my house when he attempted to climb the ladder. He had just got to the guttering, when platform toppled over backwards and dumped him on the floor having bounced of his satellite dish on the way down. Net result, two broken teeth and a smashed elbow. The guy is a builder, in his own words ' he was in a hurry'.

if only he was wearing his high vis, someone could have seen him and shouted at him

 

[binky]

similar for me - one of the main reasons for buying a scissor lift. save working from ladders & mobile scaffold (and building it) as much as possible

Scissor lifts and cherry pickers are great gadgets. Never had much use for them in the mainly domestic works we do, but for the odd industrial bit of work we have done they are so much better than building platforms and ladders.

 

[MikeJhn]

The answer to that is carefully. Once on the roof, good scaffolding with toe boards provides protection from anything that might drop off the roof - I went through several scaffolders until I found one who installs it the way we needed it. The ladder is always the most risky element, but can't be eliminated, but we used to get a half platform on the scaffold, two short ladders is a lot safer than one large one, and much easier for lifting tools, and removing any debris from the roof. The main materials, ie rails and panels, everyone was involved with lifting, so everyone knew exactly where everyone else is, so Hi Viz would make no difference to that, hard hat, debatable as no one was stupid enough to stand directly under gear being lifted.

Brings me to another true story. Commercial PV installation where roof access internally was too small for panels, and as the roof had a low wall around the edge, we couldn't use a telehandler. So plan was to hire a scissor lift as we had a nice expanse of flat tarmac right next to the building, only to be told by site H&S bod that we can't do that as scissor lifts are not designed to lift materials, OK, so people and tools don't weigh anything?

Did not answer my question, how where the materials and tools taken up to the roof?

 

[poni]

Did not answer my question, how where the materials and tools taken up to the roof

The answer to that is carefully. Once on the roof, good scaffolding with toe boards provides protection from anything that might drop off the roof - I went through several scaffolders until I found one who installs it the way we needed it. The ladder is always the most risky element, but can't be eliminated, but we used to get a half platform on the scaffold, two short ladders is a lot safer than one large one, and much easier for lifting tools, and removing any debris from the roof. The main materials, ie rails and panels, everyone was involved with lifting, so everyone knew exactly where everyone else is, so Hi Viz would make no difference to that, hard hat, debatable as no one was stupid enough to stand directly under gear being lifted.
I thought that this was a good answer,

 

[binky]

Did not answer my question, how where the materials and tools taken up to the roof?

How do you think that's achieved?

 

[MikeJhn]

I am waiting for you to inform me, but from your previous answers I assume you carry everything up a ladder.

 

[Sharpend]

I am waiting for you to inform me, but from your previous answers I assume you carry everything up a ladder.

And the problem with that is?

 

[binky]

I am waiting for you to inform me, but from your previous answers I assume you carry everything up a ladder.

Due to hedges, walls, steps and the general layout of most domestic properties we usually have no other choice other than the ladder or winch. A half platform greatly improves the situation.

Have you ever installed PV on a roof?

 

[MikeJhn]

And the problem with that is?

You can't maintain three points of contact if carrying something.

I have never installed PV on a roof, but in fifty years in construction I have used a lot of ladder to access a workplace.

 

[Sharpend]

You can't maintain three points of contact if carrying something.

I have never installed PV on a roof, but in fifty years in construction I have used a lot of ladder to access a workplace.

And I suspect at least once you have climbed without 3 points of contact. Whether you care to admit to it is a different thing altogether.
There is more than one way to ascend a ladder and keep three points of contact. Which with your years of experience I suspect you know.

 

[Richard-the-Ninth]

Hi all. Just a reminder, this is a forum, everyone has an opinion, don't make it personal. (I don't want to lock this thread)

 

[Andy™]

You can't maintain three points of contact if carrying something.

I've often carried tools etc in a backpack up a ladder. so proven wrong immediately, it is posible to carry something and maintain 3 points of contact

it would also be easy to carry a rope up with you, then use that to pull the materials up without needing to climb a ladder whilst carrying materials. or even attach materials to bag / shoulder strap and carry them up that way

 

[MikeJhn]

A backpack changes your CofG and can over balance you backwards off the ladder.

A rope slung over the shoulders is a better idea, but even this can snag on something, the better answer is a Ginny wheel to lift tools and materials with proper restraints and guide ropes, exclusion zone below clearly marked on the ground, hiviz allowing the operative to see if anyone is approaching the exclusion zone.

 

[Andy™]

A backpack changes your CofG and can over balance you backwards off the ladder.

yes, but if the weight is suitable it isn't really an issue. you should also have the ladders tied so no risk of them falling back over either

A rope slung over the shoulders is a better idea, but even this can snag on something, the better answer is a Ginny wheel to lift tools and materials with proper restraints and guide ropes, exclusion zone below clearly marked on the ground, hiviz allowing the operative to see if anyone is approaching the exclusion zone.

many scaffolders will fit a proper support from ginny wheel which would be a better option, especially for heavier / bulky loads

exclusion zone... maybe in a large commercial area you might have plenty space. on a house there isn't really going to be space for a dedicated zone, nor necessary. simply lift what you need then get on with installating, then back for more materials to be pulled up, & repeat

high vis would also not really make you much more visable than you area are. to be fair. if those doing the lifting / operating the ginny wheel etc cannot see someone below them because they don't have a high vis, then they shouldn't be working on site. H&S and all that, they are the risk, remove them. larger site with higher roof, possible crane driver involved then yes, but on a house, no.

 

[binky]

You can maintain 3 points, but it's not a good idea. Most tools, and small materials go in a bucket or large cloth bag and are pulled up with a rope. The rails are 4.3m long so those can usually just be passed up to someone on the scaffold. The panels were always a pain on the neck, with a crew of 3 and half platform they can usually be passed hand to hand, failing that a good sling and rope/ pulley gets used most of the time. Can't say I was ever very happy about that, but never found a better answer. That in turn brings me back to one of my other points, H&S is not there to stop you working or doing these things, it's there to make you think if there's a better way of doing it, sometimes there just isn't. We fitted something like 40,000 panels without dropping or breaking a single one in ten years.

Working on a large site is a very different scenario, as you would have lots of people you don't know milling around, not really aware of what you are doing and possibly getting in places you don't want them, where as a small team of 3 or 4 people know where everyone else is as they are conversant with working with each other and the risks associated. Once on the roof, there was very little issue bar the wind, panels are large and very good at catching a breeze. We delayed installing panels in anything over about 15mph to avoid issues with that, as that could be dangerous, especially if it is one of those days when the wind keeps gusting at higher speeds. Hi Viz and hard hats would not make an iota of difference to how we worked, but the greatest safety measure we used is far simpler than that, price the job and plan it so as not to be in a rush. My background is high integrity Aerospace engineering, a solar system should last at least 30 years if installed well, you don't get good installation work by rushing, I've seen the ***** done by other companies that would install 2 or even 3 systems a day, and repaired quite a few of those.

Are ladders still allowed on site? I was under the impression they had effectively been banned.

 

[MikeJhn]

Ladders can still be used: https://www.hse.gov.uk/work-at-height/ladders/index.htm

 

[Fleeting]

How did we get from VDE hand tools to this, give me strength.