Water/Gas used as sole means of Earthing

[m4tty]

Looks that way mate

 

[m4tty]

Just contacted southern electric who gave me Edfs number ffs. So I rung them back and they said if I wanted pme it's gonna cost. What size cable is normally used from pme head to met as they don't know what earthing arrangement is there and a diy pme has got to be better than earthed through water pipes. Hard hat applied.

Cheers

 

[Chris_81]

Just rung edf and they said that its not their responsibility and i need to contact the energy supplier who will send a meter man out who will loop test it and sort the earth out. Not sure if ive been fobbed off. What do you guys recon. I know about ESQCR regs saying that if they supply a earth they have to maintain it.Think next step is to call Southern Electric and ask for them to come round and do a loop test and sort earth out.

They're fobbing you off mate. I work for Southern Electric (In the Kent/SE Lonon area) and although we can do a ze test for you we're not allowed to change the earthing arrangement as that's down to the dno.

Also when you say you can't touch the cut out as its the suppliers property, you're incorrect. The meter belongs to the supply company, the cut out is a point of distribution so belongs to the dno (edf). Who have a habit of not bothering with seals!

Where abouts is the property? If its in my area I'm happy to ring edf for you, say I've been there and it needs the earthing sorting out. They can't fob us off as easy!!

 

[m4tty]

Nice one mate that's very kind. The house is my dads which is in sidcup. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again

 

[Chris_81]

Sent you a pm mate. EDF aren't interested in a lot of things now. Was talking to one of their engineers the other day and he was far from impressed by them!

 

[m4tty]

Found this on iet forum and thought was relevant to this post re getting passed from dno to electricity supplier to dno etc

Down here in EDF land the whole sytem seems to be to be out of control. With the fragmentation of the industry and the process of disposing of competent knowledable people from the industry to jack up the profit whilst cutting back on the service provision leaves the network in a sorry state. The current DNO known has EDF has had numerous name changes and owners and is currently up for sale and has been for about a year. Consumers ringing up the "help desks" will get buck passed around DNO departments to the meter operator and the supplier and round again with all denying resposnsibilty and refering the consumer to one of the other parties. In respect of cut out seals and meters I have been to houses with no meters to PIR the installation. When I arrive the owner says have you come about the meter? They have tried to get a meter as they are worried about getting a huge bill but again get passed around the system and promises to attend site are not delivered. I know of "help desks" telling consumers to get an electrician to convert their own installation to TNCS when they have a bad TNS Ze.

Rather than trying to get EDF to provide a service in to a property it is not unknown for the consumer to pay cash to a contractor to do it for them same day rather than spend a months pleading with EDF to do it. I read in their in house magazine where they had cottoned on to the illegal service connections and were having a big drive on prevention and detection, stable, bolted, horses and doors springs to mind. They might want to start at all the illegal travellers sites that have their own DIY service connections.

So electrical contractors pulling cut out fuses to do their work is the least of their problems. They perhaps might want to focus whilst they are at it on the thousands of installations with fused neutrals, unearthed cast iron heads and decayed service cables.

I had no seal on my cut out fuse for 25 years, probaly longer as it was not there when I moved in, which was handy when I changed consumer unit for the 1st time,when I rewired the house when I moved in and years later when I fitted an isolator and new split load board. It was not until a couple of years ago I had a new meter that the cut out was sealed. I did check the polarity after the meter change as it is not uncommon for the wire, fire and f**k off meter changers who are in and out in a few minutes to reverse the polarity. A mate of mine who is a school teacher and former electrical engineer had a meter change. After his daughter noticed a flourescent light had a swirling light in the tube when switched off. He suspected the meter change from the off and confimed reverse polarity and then his problems started trying to get someone/anyone to come to site to confirm his findings and rectify the fault.

 

[batty]

Found this on iet forum and thought was relevant to this post re getting passed from dno to electricity supplier to dno etcDown here in EDF land the whole sytem seems to be to be out of control. With the fragmentation of the industry and the process of disposing of competent knowledable people from the industry to jack up the profit whilst cutting back on the service provision leaves the network in a sorry state. The current DNO known has EDF has had numerous name changes and owners and is currently up for sale and has been for about a year. Consumers ringing up the "help desks" will get buck passed around DNO departments to the meter operator and the supplier and round again with all denying resposnsibilty and refering the consumer to one of the other parties. In respect of cut out seals and meters I have been to houses with no meters to PIR the installation. When I arrive the owner says have you come about the meter? They have tried to get a meter as they are worried about getting a huge bill but again get passed around the system and promises to attend site are not delivered. I know of "help desks" telling consumers to get an electrician to convert their own installation to TNCS when they have a bad TNS Ze.

Rather than trying to get EDF to provide a service in to a property it is not unknown for the consumer to pay cash to a contractor to do it for them same day rather than spend a months pleading with EDF to do it. I read in their in house magazine where they had cottoned on to the illegal service connections and were having a big drive on prevention and detection, stable, bolted, horses and doors springs to mind. They might want to start at all the illegal travellers sites that have their own DIY service connections.

So electrical contractors pulling cut out fuses to do their work is the least of their problems. They perhaps might want to focus whilst they are at it on the thousands of installations with fused neutrals, unearthed cast iron heads and decayed service cables.

I had no seal on my cut out fuse for 25 years, probaly longer as it was not there when I moved in, which was handy when I changed consumer unit for the 1st time,when I rewired the house when I moved in and years later when I fitted an isolator and new split load board. It was not until a couple of years ago I had a new meter that the cut out was sealed. I did check the polarity after the meter change as it is not uncommon for the wire, fire and f**k off meter changers who are in and out in a few minutes to reverse the polarity. A mate of mine who is a school teacher and former electrical engineer had a meter change. After his daughter noticed a flourescent light had a swirling light in the tube when switched off. He suspected the meter change from the off and confimed reverse polarity and then his problems started trying to get someone/anyone to come to site to confirm his findings and rectify the fault.

I know a jointer that worked for them for years and did his apprentiship when it was Eastern electric he got fed up with them and now works for a company that does a lot of there work.

 

[sparkytim]

Hi

So have I got this right?

This installation is fed by Lead sheathed cable coming up from under floor and next door is fed off this cable cut-out. Or is it the other way round?

This was a common way of feeding semi's . So you will find they both should be TNS with a link cable thru wall.

You may be able to get a new supply put into the one that is linked as each dwelling should have an independent supply

Now if it happened that the one linked off next door lost its earth then this would be a dangerous condition reportable to DNO as an emergency.

You would have visit from a DST who would assess and arrange to have new supply cable put in.

 

[m4tty]

Hi So have I got this right?

This installation is fed by Lead sheathed cable coming up from under floor and next door is fed off this cable cut-out. Or is it the other way round?

Its the other way round. Next door have got the incommer with their earth by a BS951 clamp where the earth is normally sweated on

This was a common way of feeding semi's . So you will find they both should be TNS with a link cable thru wall.

Ive had a look next door and cant see any other cable coming from the incommer apart from next doors bs951 clamp. There is a cable which looks like its coming from next door but goes to the lead water pipe. As per picture above if you can make it out mate

You may be able to get a new supply put into the one that is linked as each dwelling should have an independent supply

Now if it happened that the one linked off next door lost its earth then this would be a dangerous condition reportable to DNO as an emergency.

You would have visit from a DST who would assess and arrange to have new supply cable put in.

Thanks mate

 

[sparkytim]

OK

So your Dads earth should come from next doors Clamp or MET as well.

Simple option if ok with next door is to put a 16mm 6491x thru wall.

Hey presto you have TNS as it was ment to be.

 

[m4tty]

OKSo your Dads earth should come from next doors Clamp or MET as well.

Simple option if ok with next door is to put a 16mm 6491x thru wall.

Hey presto you have TNS as it was ment to be.

Been round there again today and went next door and his earth is via ec15 tenby clamp. My dads Earth is via his lead water pipe only. I continuity tested for his clamp to my dads earth and the reading were in kohms. Next door has said he doesnt mind me feeding some 16mm earth through the wall with the looped supply cable and onto his clamp (providing its within regs)

Will the assessor be ok if this was done as it would save me a lot of aggro trying to get cable from under stairs to rod out in garden.

Cheers

 

[sparkytim]

How would he know? The DNO should have provided a link when installed along with the L and N.

Suggest providing earth block MET next door if it does not have one and pick up 16mm link earth from there, don't touch BS591 clamp on sheath other then to GENTLY check it is tight. It makes a big bang if you over tighten and squash the lead into the Live conductors!

Thats why they should not be on there in the first place but commonly are put on by DNOs.

In effect you are doing EDF a favour in improving the Network, you should send them a bill, but perhaps not.

 

[m4tty]

How would he know? The DNO should have provided a link when installed along with the L and N.Suggest providing earth block MET next door if it does not have one and pick up 16mm link earth from there, don't touch BS591 clamp on sheath other then to GENTLY check it is tight. It makes a big bang if you over tighten and squash the lead into the Live conductors!

Thats why they should not be on there in the first place but commonly are put on by DNOs.

In effect you are doing EDF a favour in improving the Network, you should send them a bill, but perhaps not.

Cheers for the advice mate and if I done this the assessor would be fine? and if someone did disconnect it next door it would still be earthed through the water pipe like it is now with a ze of 0.19 ohms

:coffee

 

[m4tty]

Hi,

Im definitely going to make this TT now but wondered about the wires which go to the lead water pipe at present. Should I connect these up to the new MET as well, as the new 16mm MEC, 10mm MPBC Gas/Water.

Or should I leave this disconnected under the floorboards.

As if I connect this old cable into the new MET the Zs results will be better as the efli reading of the lead water pipe is much lower than the Ra of the rod.

Should I leave the lead water pipe bonding disconnected as im going to bond after stopcock where the lead changes to copper.

The old lead water pipe at present gives a Ze (with bonding connected) of 0.19Ohms and the rod that ive banged in gives a Ra of 29.1ohms. So in effect the Earth at present is much better than the new earth (rod) will ever be (but it has to be changed in case the water board replace their incomming pipe with plastic?)

Is it best to leave the old cable disconnected as it will be bonded further up anyway with new cable.

Think I may have just wrote a load of rubbish ^^^ lol.

Another question:

On a TT installation - the MPBC:- can they sometimes give a better impedance to earth than the rod itself?

Sorry for being longwinded (was gonna delete this post a few times but ill leave it to see if anyone can understand me) :C :C:C