what would you do?

[sellers]

A customer ring me up after having a new ceiling put up and plastered in the bathroom. They tell me they originally had 2 x large downlights which the plasterer pushed up into the loft space.

They want these re-instating but with newer lights maybe with 4. I told her that I can re-instate the 2 with IP rated downlights but if putting 4 in I would have to RCD the circuit. Would you agree? Problem is in these situations is that from just re plastering a ceiling someone may need to pay nearly

 

[Manator]

This is one of those situations where common sense has to be used, the financial implications to the client, and the risk of a non qualified person just doing the job. It could be argued that adding the extra 2 fitting would not constitute a major change, and who is to say that whilst we know there is only 2 lights, there was not 4 before?

I would fill in a minor works certificate with wording to the effect of, reinstated lighting to newly plaster boarded ceiling.

Job done.

 

[ProDave]

^ +1

The proposed amendment coming up did at one point have a specific exclusion to RCD requirements in the case of a minor alteration to a socket circuit, as long as the alteration makes it "no less safe"

I never did find a similar exclusion for other circuits (which would have made sense) but anyway, it appears from what I read, that clause has been scrapped from the amendment.

But it does highlight the fact the IET have been discussing this sort of problem and how we are having to fit RCD's to do such a simple alteration.

I think with a nod and a wink, you could agree there must have been 4 lights before, and you are just putting back 4 new lights, i.e a like for like replacement. The new lights will almost certainly be a better IP rating so will certainly be "no less safe"

Have you got any red / black wire kicking about to prove you are just re using the old circuit and just doing a like for like replacement? :red card :coat

Alternatively, just an RCD FCU to feed just the bathroom lights if you want to do it by the book. That avoids a complete CU change and all the can of worms that might open up. Just mount it high up on the wall outside the bathroom.

Incidently, a genuine serious question. How do you stand if you fit 12V replacement downlights? The existing circuit would feed the transformer and is in the loft. The "new" wiring would be the 12V wiring to the lights. You can't RCD the 12V side, and as the wiring to the tx is just the old circuit does that need an RCD?

 

[MajorOak]

If the lights are in Zone 2 then they should IPX4 (IPX5 if hosing down) and protected by an RCD, however, if they are SELV then the same IP is required but the requirement for an RCD does not apply. It also applies in Zone 1 as well.

 

[sellers]

Theres no way I would put 4 in without RCDing, I'm a little be-grudged putting the 2 in, but it is technically a like for like replacement with no wiring adjustment?

I was allways under the impression all bathroom circuits needed rcd protecting regardless of 12v or 240v? which is why I never see the use for 12v downlights? I know that an RCD on a SELV circuit is useless but I always thought it was the regs regardless.

 

[steptoe]

Prodave, brown and blue has been available for about 10yrs now so it could be used with a nod as you say.

total madness putting another 100quid onto the cost of fitting a couple of downlights in a ceiling.

 

[m4tty]

One of them powerbreaker rcd units are only

 

[Badger]

One of them powerbreaker rcd units are only

 

[m4tty]

What up with what I said badge lol ?

 

[ProDave]

As I said before, if your interpretation of regs, and / or your concience dictates you NEED to fit an RCD, then an RCD FCU up near the ceiling outside the bathroom, just to feed this one light circuit has to be the cheapest option. Should add about

 

[PC Electrics]

Surely, adding an RCBO or RCDFCU will only add about

 

[Badger]

What up with what I said badge lol ?

nothing what you said im just not a fan of 3036's

 

[kerching]

Use new cable. Since the plasterer managed to 'slightly damage' the cable whilst reboarding...simples. Plasterers eh!... :coat

 

[batty]

If you fit 12v lights you need to notify it anyway so you may as well put an RCD spur in that way you cover your back anyway.

 

[Evans Electric]

Because its a bathroom ,you need to fit an RCD under the 17th , unfortunately. Its up to you . If you didn't fit an RCD do you think the Electric Police will be knocking your door . However , if there were 4 fittings there before and you are merely refitting them , I don't see the problem.

In one of my posts many moons ago, I raised the subject of how electricians seem to constantly invent problems for themselves , mostly based on the thousands of rules we have to work under.

I know what I'd do .

 

[MajorOak]

Regulation 701.414 Protective measure: Extra low voltage provided by SELV and PELV. The regulations state that you do not need to use an RCD on the circuit if you have used SELV and I would expect the bathroom light is on a pull chord.

If you use SELV lights and the client touched the secondary side of the SELV system then your newly installed RCD/RCBO would be not function anyway, as secondary side is electrically separated from the primary side. The safety source, the SELV transformer is outside the prescribed zones and buried above the nice new plasterboard.