Which downlights are people using?
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Neil Holdsworth
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That is exactly my point. A plasterboard ceiling is fire rated and by drilling lots of holes we needed to replace that rating as there is a room above. That was my understanding of it anyway. I have perhaps misunderstood but still think these fire rated fittings are the way to go and like was said earlier in the thread. There is nothing wrong with gong above and beyond the regs.
There aren't tradesman fitting halogen still??
There aren't tradesman fitting halogen still??
if you go between fire compartments then the fire rating must be maintained. within the same compartment then it doesnt matter. is it really that hard to understand? if you want to fit fire rated downlights when regs dont specifically require it then go ahead and fit them, nothing to say you cant, but dont go on saying 'So why are most of us fitting them? They're quite a bit more expensive.' when the problem is you havent looked to see what the actual requirements are and probably going by what either you have heard, wholesaler has said etc
a lot of people fit fire rated thinking they protect against the fitting causing fires in the materials above the lamp, they don't. There was a JCC video about fires and downlighters, showing a standard downlighter was good for 30mins anyway. You need to keep materials away from the fittings in the ceiling voids regardless, and as I said before without decent air movement the lamps tend to overheat. LED is also prone to this, as the chip needs to be kept cool, hence all the cooling fins on the lamps.
Doc Hudson
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The principal function of fire rating is to prevent the passage of smoke between fire compartments, If you are not also fitting a fire door with intumescent seals to the room where you are fitting your downlights then you have done nothing to improve or replace the fire rating. As the smoke will just move through the bigger hole in the door then up the stairs. Fire doors have seals and door closers. If the room doesn't have a fire door, it is not a fire compartment, irrespective of how plasterboard may or may not perform.
Doc H.
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Sharpend
"It Just Is"
I'm so glad you use quality products Kerch, next you'll be telling me you've got the latest electronic regs and a mare called Bruce!
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It wasn't like that when I took the pic!
any road up....sore neck?.....did that not come up in the RAMS :innocent
any road up....sore neck?.....did that not come up in the RAMS :innocent
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davetheglitz
Electrician
Recently had a job where some upstairs downright weren't working and the customer was complaining of a burning smell. These were open halogen MR16s in an upstairs loft room. On investigation all lamps and transformers were covered in pigeon sh1t and there was even a nest directly above one of the lights with 2 eggs in it - perfect incubator! All the brass work was tarnished with the acid! Pigeons now excluded - but I reckon fire rated fittings with LEDs (love the SMD GU 10's) would have saved a lot of problems. Quite happy with Denmans Basics.
Neil Holdsworth
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I went into the wholesalers yesterday and was told by a rep that it was to maintain the fire rating of the ceiling! I said that it is nothing to do with that and that one house is generally one fire compartment.
He'd never heard of that!
Still doesn't change my mind on what I want to fit. I've just got some aurora enlite for a job. I'm quite impressed with them. I'd like to fit something with a replaceable lamp though. I fitted some lap ones from screwfix some time ago. No comebacks on them.
He'd never heard of that!
Still doesn't change my mind on what I want to fit. I've just got some aurora enlite for a job. I'm quite impressed with them. I'd like to fit something with a replaceable lamp though. I fitted some lap ones from screwfix some time ago. No comebacks on them.
thats because he's not a sparky, so wouldnt be expected to know. this is what happens when you take advice from people who dont know what they are on about
Doc Hudson
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A sales rep will normally have targets to try and sell a certain quantity or monetary value of product(s). Therefore if they can over specify or sell products to reach their targets more easily they will. As a rule of thumb try to remember that a negligible proportion of reps have had to attain any level of formal external certification or training in any of the product fields they are employed to sell. More likely a one day or half day in-house product overview from within their company. Suggest to your 'rep' he starts with something like this then progresses on.
http://www.firesafetyservices.co.uk/compartmentation-of-buildings-what-does-it-mean/
Doc H.
I throw this into the discussion .
Our Regs state that the wiring system is installed so that the fire safety performance of the building is not reduced .
Surely if you drill a load of 70mm holes in a 1/2 hour fire rated ceiling , whether its all one compartment or not , you have compromised that fire rating when you fit NON fire rated downlights ?
Our Regs state that the wiring system is installed so that the fire safety performance of the building is not reduced .
Surely if you drill a load of 70mm holes in a 1/2 hour fire rated ceiling , whether its all one compartment or not , you have compromised that fire rating when you fit NON fire rated downlights ?
Sharpend
"It Just Is"
IMO this is an irrelevant debate?
if I had a spark round and he suggested that I had non fire rated lights fitted as after all my whole house was deemed to be one fire compartment, I'd ask myself if my families life could be saved in the extra minutes that fire rated lights may give, for in a fire a minute can seem like a life time.
Then I'd suggest he Foxtrot Oscar out the door.
My family is worth more than a couple of lousy quid and a technicality.
if I had a spark round and he suggested that I had non fire rated lights fitted as after all my whole house was deemed to be one fire compartment, I'd ask myself if my families life could be saved in the extra minutes that fire rated lights may give, for in a fire a minute can seem like a life time.
Then I'd suggest he Foxtrot Oscar out the door.
My family is worth more than a couple of lousy quid and a technicality.
ruston
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^^^ Spot on , it's not worth the contemplation.
It's not just the heat , it is sound passage to be considered too.
Modern houses are thin enough without perforating them even further.
It's not just the heat , it is sound passage to be considered too.
Modern houses are thin enough without perforating them even further.
your ceilings will last roughly 30mins, assuming they aren't some old crappy lathe and plaster items, even non-fire rated are good for 30mins, so there is no compromise,and to be frank to protect your family smoke detection is what you really want along with a possible second fire exit like one of those rope ladder things you can buy. You are more likely to die from smoke inhalation than the fire itself, and 30 mins in house with a fire big enough to take down ceilings is likely to mean you are already dead
As for modern houses, most are built with insulation between the floors to deaden sound these days. Even then the 'fire rated' have holes in the back to dissipate heat, so they still pass sound. About the only downlighters rated for sound are bathroom lights, which should be fitted in attics to seal against draughts, though i seem to remember some JCC items that do fire and sound (could be wrong about that bit)
As for modern houses, most are built with insulation between the floors to deaden sound these days. Even then the 'fire rated' have holes in the back to dissipate heat, so they still pass sound. About the only downlighters rated for sound are bathroom lights, which should be fitted in attics to seal against draughts, though i seem to remember some JCC items that do fire and sound (could be wrong about that bit)
Whilst I don't think it a bad idea to fit "fire rated" fittings if you so choose.
I do think that it is good for people to realise that a single dwelling in sole occupancy of one family unit is a single fire compartment, excluding any attached garage.
The web page linked in post #33 by Doc, is pretty good, but, as it is by a company promoting their services, then this should be borne in mind.
The approved documents listed in this article are legitimately freely downloadable from ".gov.uk" sites.
These will be the official guidance with regard to domestic dwelling fire compartmentalisation requirements.
I do think that it is good for people to realise that a single dwelling in sole occupancy of one family unit is a single fire compartment, excluding any attached garage.
The web page linked in post #33 by Doc, is pretty good, but, as it is by a company promoting their services, then this should be borne in mind.
The approved documents listed in this article are legitimately freely downloadable from ".gov.uk" sites.
These will be the official guidance with regard to domestic dwelling fire compartmentalisation requirements.
