Why is the electrical trade unique in the way it behaves towards customers and fellow tradesmen

[unphased]

I have the benefit of having experienced many aspects of the construction industry. Out of all the trades people I have worked with, Electricians are by far the most pompous and self opinionated bunch. I just wonder why? What is it about the trade that invokes so much debate from every nut, bolt and screw used to judging every person involved competenty to be doing it in the first place. You don't hear builders do this, or carpenters, or even plumbers or gas fitters, or plasterers. They just seem to get on and do. But when you approach an electrician, stand back, you are about to be dictated to. I'm sorry, but that is the impression created by the trade and by all the people who operate within it. You only have to sample the tone of the electrical forums residing on the internet to know that what I am saying is true. But why? What makes the trade so argumentative and aggressive? Why do so many opinions differ when at the heart of the trade is a book which is common to everything the trade does. The Regs. That oft referred to, oft pointed at, oft phrased "read the regs" that rolls off the tongue of all the electricians so readily, "read the regs". Well, okay, but having read the regs disagreements ensue. Argumnts and debates ensue, reams of words in print acriss forums the world over. Infractions, beratements, put downs, everywhere you look. But why? Why are electricians such a bunch of self-righteous individuals who always know better than their peers. Hmm. Who can answer this?

 

[Theorysparky]

' You only have to sample the tone of the electrical forums residing on the internet to know that what I am saying is true. But why? What makes the trade so argumentative and aggressive? '

I will tell you why from a domestic point of view

I get p*ssed off when i struggle to get

 

[Manator]

I do not think this is strictly the case, I have seen similar argument and debate with other trades.

However I also think that if all regulations are taken into account electricians are probably more regulated than any other trade. I have an answer for you if you want to throw gas safe back at me but will not include it here just for now.

Interpretation and use of the regulations will always be different for each and every person, some things that have been done a certain way for years by one person could be done quicker and easier by another, but individually they would argue who is right or wrong.

We have witnessed on this forum questions where debate has ensued on simple basic facts, known to all but interpreted differently by others.

Debate is good for this trade, we all can share experiences and learn from one another, I would say that I am very experienced, even expert in some area's but if I had to install some variable drives I know where I would be asking my questions.

 

[CTID]

Talk about waking a sleeping lion unphased ha ha. This may be a good debate.

My viewpoint on it is that electricians are indeed undervalued and underpaid for the amount of updating of literature and regulations that they have to keep up with, all paid for out of the electricians/installers pocket while profits also decline.

The other thing that is a big gripe is the so called 'Part P defined scope' that other trades pay less for than even our own trade does, allows for plumbers to go into a house and undertake electrical work, taking trade from electricians, do they go into a house and fit a full en-suite at the same time as a CU change!

My biggest annoyance with some people from the electrical trade is the hatred towards short courses/5ww. If joining the electrical trade at an early age, no commitments, the route of an apprenticeship is a viable one. However to older people wanting to get involved, sometimes these short courses are the only way to get in to the industry. Should they be put down for this or classed as sub-standard, I don't think so! As I say though, to me they are only a starting point, I myself am putting myself through my 2382, 2392 etc, before then going for the 2356, I do want to learn the trade and be a fully qualified electrician.

I admit there will be some 5ww out there that call themselves an electrician after these courses and seem to think this is all they need to do to work on their own. I also admit their will be some that have shocking standards of work, won't know the regs or even which end of a screwdriver to use. However, this is can also be said about some that have done approved 4 year apprenticeships. Some people just aren't cut out for the industry and never will be, same as every trade has these.

Rant over, it's a bank holiday!

 

[sellers]

I'm bitter with the fact so many people believe they can DIY their electrics and get away with it.

The amount of shoddy installations in my local area is ridiculous! the fact it works is all they are bothered about. I have just been to a cafe with a 50amp mcb protecting a 2.5 ring. The polish electrician had been back 4 times as the circuit was tripping from overload! More than 50amps on a 2.5ring! I am surprised the whole building isn't burnt to a crisp!

The reason why electricians may be bitter between each other is because the regs can be interpreted in many different ways, meaning I can quote a job and be 30% dearer than the bloke who follows them a loosely as possible!

 

[apprentice87]

Hi,

I can tell you why..... The "average" builder is not a builder at all, but merely a labourer. Not being funny, i can lay bricks, obviously not as well as a proper builder, but well enough... Does not make me a builder though..

Sooo, You go and ask a "builder" "What is a low sulphate brick and where would it be used and why?"

Have a guess what....I doubt you will find ONE that is actually qualified and can tell you.. and this is not including all the morons, that do not know which way up to lay a brick and why...

People with no qualifications always scoff at those who have... "It is not bits of paper, it is can you do the job" type attitudes.

See, i could build a wall with the wrong sort of brick, laid upside down, and just for good measure, use washing up liquid as plasticiser, but no-one, apart from a "proper" builder would notice. The wall would be a waste of good bricks, but to the average joe, it might look ok..

No, the difference is, and no disrespect to carpenters and builders, it requires a bit more brain to be an electrician....

Would anyone expect a bricklayer to do structural calcs??

A beam spans 10 feet and carries a uniformally distributed load of 5 tons. Calculate, 1, section modulus required for max permissable bending stress [which you will have to calculate first] 2, select suitable section beam, 3, calculate max deflection. 4, Check section for web buckling and bearing capacity.

See what i mean???? But EVERY electrician has to carry out complicated calcs every time they design the smallest installation or part of one...

The BIG BIG difference is, the "average Joe" does not realise this...He can see that a "bricky" has laid a whole load of bricks, but meanwhile he thinks, all the "sparks" has done is fiddle with a fancy looking meter and a calculator and connect a few wires. "Anyone can do that, huh, i put new spot lights on my car last week, nothing to being an electrician...."

At the end of the day i doubt anyone is going to die if your garden wall falls down, or your cupboard falls off the wall... You electricians get it wrong and people are likely to be badly hurt or buildings burn down..

Does a "bricky" have to, by law, fill in a cert taking PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY [complete with his name and address on it] for the work he has done and give it to the client????

This should answer your question....

john..

 

[betty swollocks]

Why are sparks the only trade to make a point of happily ****ging another sparks work off to a customer even when he's talking ********

It's something I've never got involved in unless I see something dangerous and even then I would prefer to ring other sparks out of customers earshot

I don't hear other trades **** each other off

We have all been to a regular customer only for them to say "bathroom company's sent there own spark out and he said when you did the consumer unit you should have done this and that should be like this and thats not very good and the front covers white when really it should be blue, but I guess you get what you pay for, how much was it? Ooooh you were robbed I would have saved you a fortune"

 

[m4tty]

There's b1tches in every walk of life and jealousy too. Sad but true

 

[Sidewinder]

...A beam spans 10 feet and carries a uniformally distributed load of 5 tons. Calculate, 1, section modulus required for max permissable bending stress [which you will have to calculate first] 2, select suitable section beam, 3, calculate max deflection. 4, Check section for web buckling and bearing capacity.

...

john..

Would you like me to do the calcs on that for you John?...

 

[Bacon]

Would you like me to do the calcs on that for you John?...

Do it for me i'm thinking of having a wall knocked out to make kitchen bigger.

 

[revjames]

I have the benefit of having experienced many aspects of the construction industry. Out of all the trades people I have worked with, Electricians are by far the most pompous and self opinionated bunch. I just wonder why? What is it about the trade that invokes so much debate from every nut, bolt and screw used to judging every person involved competenty to be doing it in the first place. You don't hear builders do this, or carpenters, or even plumbers or gas fitters, or plasterers. They just seem to get on and do. But when you approach an electrician, stand back, you are about to be dictated to. I'm sorry, but that is the impression created by the trade and by all the people who operate within it. You only have to sample the tone of the electrical forums residing on the internet to know that what I am saying is true. But why? What makes the trade so argumentative and aggressive? Why do so many opinions differ when at the heart of the trade is a book which is common to everything the trade does. The Regs. That oft referred to, oft pointed at, oft phrased "read the regs" that rolls off the tongue of all the electricians so readily, "read the regs". Well, okay, but having read the regs disagreements ensue. Argumnts and debates ensue, reams of words in print acriss forums the world over. Infractions, beratements, put downs, everywhere you look. But why? Why are electricians such a bunch of self-righteous individuals who always know better than their peers. Hmm. Who can answer this?

I guess the simplest answer is it takes one to know one. I have worked in the electrical trade in its various disciplines across construction sites, domestic, industrial etc for 32 years and would have to disagree. Some people are very loudmouthed and opinionated and it doesnt matter what trade they are from.

 

[NozSpark]

Hi,I can tell you why..... The "average" builder is not a builder at all, but merely a labourer. Not being funny, i can lay bricks, obviously not as well as a proper builder, but well enough... Does not make me a builder though..

Sooo, You go and ask a "builder" "What is a low sulphate brick and where would it be used and why?"

Have a guess what....I doubt you will find ONE that is actually qualified and can tell you.. and this is not including all the morons, that do not know which way up to lay a brick and why...

People with no qualifications always scoff at those who have... "It is not bits of paper, it is can you do the job" type attitudes.

See, i could build a wall with the wrong sort of brick, laid upside down, and just for good measure, use washing up liquid as plasticiser, but no-one, apart from a "proper" builder would notice. The wall would be a waste of good bricks, but to the average joe, it might look ok..

No, the difference is, and no disrespect to carpenters and builders, it requires a bit more brain to be an electrician....

Would anyone expect a bricklayer to do structural calcs??

A beam spans 10 feet and carries a uniformally distributed load of 5 tons. Calculate, 1, section modulus required for max permissable bending stress [which you will have to calculate first] 2, select suitable section beam, 3, calculate max deflection. 4, Check section for web buckling and bearing capacity.

See what i mean???? But EVERY electrician has to carry out complicated calcs every time they design the smallest installation or part of one...

The BIG BIG difference is, the "average Joe" does not realise this...He can see that a "bricky" has laid a whole load of bricks, but meanwhile he thinks, all the "sparks" has done is fiddle with a fancy looking meter and a calculator and connect a few wires. "Anyone can do that, huh, i put new spot lights on my car last week, nothing to being an electrician...."

At the end of the day i doubt anyone is going to die if your garden wall falls down, or your cupboard falls off the wall... You electricians get it wrong and people are likely to be badly hurt or buildings burn down..

Does a "bricky" have to, by law, fill in a cert taking PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY [complete with his name and address on it] for the work he has done and give it to the client????

This should answer your question....

john..

John,

You're quite right, the chances are that someone won't get killed as a result of a wall falling down on them. However it does happen, a young child was killed by a wall falling on them just up the road from me. The builder has been charged with manslaughter and is still awaiting trial

BBC News - Meg Burgess Prestatyn wall death manslaughter charge

 

[apprentice87]

Hi all,

Yes, it is quite correct, there are bitchy people in all trades.... I will tell you a little story...

Years ago, i started working for part of a very large group of companies as a welder. The foreman hated me from the start, and was determined to make life awkward for me. The reason for this, is that, although he was not part of interviewing me, he was within earshot, so he knew that my qualifications FAR exceeded any he had, [As it turns out, i do not think he had any]

Now, this fellow, after giving me a lecture about how clever he was, and how he practically built everything single handedly himself, from the Forth bridge down, decided he was going to scupper me... bad, bad idea!!!!!

Now, they were making these rather large fabricated structures, composed of quite a few parts, some about 40 feet long, bolted together.

So, it is my first day now. Mr Muppet gives me a general assembly drawing of the thing and says "set that up"

I said, i do not understand. He says "set it up" I say, "I do not understand what you are asking me to do"

He just says, "set it up" and marches off....

Now, remembering it is my first day, but they have made a few of these things already, he has a bit of a head start on me.... Other problem is, the drawing is only a faxed one, reduced from about an A0 sheet, and is practically unreadable...

So, I thought, you will not beat me.... so I sat down for a bit, and well and truly studied this drawing, i studied it for about an hour. All the time i can see the muppet grinning at me..

Having finally figured the thing out, and how it all fitted together, I set to assembling it and setting it all up for the next bit of the job....

About an hour, and lots of fiddling about with string lines and measuring tapes and overhead cranes later....OMG No!!!!

There is a God after all....The "know it all muppet" has only gone and drilled about 60, one inch, if not even bigger, bolt holes in the wrong place!!!! I checked and checked and checked again!! Yep, they were all in the wrong place!!!! YES!!!!!

Off i go to the office, and gleefully say "the bolt holes are all in the wrong place!"

Much hysterical laughter later, and after lots of telling me how thick i was, I say "come and have a look then"

Mr Foreman Muppet, closely followed by the boss, come and have a look. Mr Muppet is gleefully showing the boss how crap i am, when, OMG the holes ARE in the wrong place!!!!!!! Who is stupid now eh!!!!!

This thing was about 50 foot by about 20 foot and they had been making it for weeks!!!!

Oh dear, what a shame!!!

john...

 

[Jono Pashley]

Ive noticed its not the better bunch of the trade who do this but the half wits who for some reason try to tell you black is white but when asked to explain their reasoning strangely cant.

 

[ProDave]

I don't believe electricians are the poor relations.

I'm working on a new build that is now on it's third plumber. I don't know the history, but for one reason or another the first two plumbers have fallen out with the client, and the third one is trying to put right all the mistakes of the first two and cursing them in the process.

There are good and bad in all trades, it's just that we only usually get to hear about the good and the bad electricians.

Another telling things, is years ago when we were darn sarf, we wanted to build an extension to our house, and wanted to find a builder we could trust. I spent some time talking to friends, relatives and neighbours who had building work done to find out who did their work and were they any good. almost all of them said they would not recommend the builder they had. Finally we found one who did come recommended, he did a good job, and I recommended him to others.

So there seem to be a LOT of all types in the building trade who are shall we say, less than perfect.

One of the things people most often say to me, is they recommend me, because I turn up to do the job when I say I would. Apparently that is a rare attribute, certainly up here.

 

[apprentice87]

Hi again,

Round here the council decided that they would embark on a programme of doing up all the council owned houses. So far so good..

I know a girl that has got one...

Stage one involved them fitting a new kitchen.

No idea who fitted the new sockets and stuff, but it was done anyway.

Stage two involved rewiring the place.

So ok, the electricians came along and rewired it. They had a bit of trouble bonding to the water at the point of entry, [as the kitchen fitters had boxed it all in!!] so they ran a cable more or less straight upstairs and bonded to the pipework there. So far so good!! Next they went to a great deal of trouble to get a cable to the incoming gas pipe, [it is situated in the centre of the house] and bonded to that. Happy days and they all go home..

Stage three involved new central heating

The plumbing people came along and fitted a combi boiler upstairs. They had to run a new 22mm gas pipe to feed the thing. Now, the easiest way, was to run it from directly adjacent to the gas meter, straight upstairs, so this is what they did. Now, Mr Plumber did a very nice job of his pipework and soldering the joints, as he would, cos he would have to have been one of them "corgi" things, or whatever they call them now.

Anyway, he was so proud of his new pipework, that THERE WAS NO WAY that he was going to reconnect one of them nasty looking BS951 clamps, or a length of garish looking green and yellow cable to HIS lovely pipework..

Apart from this, they did not know how to wire up the new boiler, so instead of using the feed from the "old" heating system, [not 12 inches away from the new boiler] they fitted a ten foot length of flex and a 13A plug and plugged it into a socket on the landing!!!!!

A few days later a council inspector comes around to make sure all is well. The girl points out the now dangling disconnected bonding cable to the inspector and said; "should this not be connected to the pipes"??

The inspector did not seem to know, and pronounced all was well and off he went!!!!

A few days later i was there, and she pointed this out to me. I wrote her a note for her to read out when she rang the council offices in the morning, explaining the importance of this bit of wire and the safety implications or disconnecting it, just to make sure they actually sent someone out.

She rang the council and they sent out an electrician, whether they actually worked for the council or a contractor i do not know.

Anyway, the electrician fitted a new clamp and connected the cable, but said he could not see what all the fuss was about, and that it was not really dangerous in any way at all!!!!!

Mind you, they did wire in the boiler for her, so they could not have been all bad!!!!

You could not make it up!!!!!!

john

 

[apprentice87]

Hi Canoe!!!

You a chemist or something!!

It is vital to use "low sulphate bricks" below DPC level. If you use any old brick, if it is in a position where it is going to be damp all the time [fairly likely underground one would think!!] the combination of the ground water, and the sulphate content of the brick, will attack and destroy the mortar, or at least it will if you use ordinary portland cement. [there are "sulphate resisting" cements]

These sulphate resisting cements would also be used where there was a high level of sulphates occuring naturally in the ground, so, before building things, technically speaking you should have a chemical analysis done of the ground first to spot this sort of thing.

Sulphate containing fill materials below concrete floors does much the same and will completely destroy the floor slab.

The precise chemistry of all this i know nothing of, just do not do it is all!!!.

As to which way up a brick goes, it is frog UP. Loads of bricklayers will say this is wrong, and i have even met one that said the bricks had to be laid frog down as otherwise water would collect in them!!!

The reason bricks are laid "frog up" is because it is very important that the frog is fully filled with mortar, reason being is that they are designed to be used this way, and the compressive strength of the bricks is quoted by the makers assuming fully filled frogs.

This sort of thing soon sorts the builders from the labourers!!!!!!!!! ha ha..

Perhaps they have 5WW builders too!!!!!!!!!!

john...

 

[Manator]

If your that interested read this

http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/planningandbuilding/pdf/703049.pdf

 

[Evans Electric]

Electricians "self opinionated and pompous" I don't agree , must be the ones you have met.

I think we are a somewhat "different" trade that doesn't really fit in with the general conception of construction trades .

You can tell that as we are deemed to be a nuisance that builders have to put up with between getting the internal walls up and getting the plasterer in .

We are over regulated to the point where some guys I meet, (and some who come on here ) are almost frightened to pick up their screwdriver in case they are breaching some rule or regulation .

Most sparks would endeavour to work in a safe way , knowing the dangers, where a lot of building trades don't give a stuff.

Compared to your everyday builder and construction worker , we are quite highly qualified. In the past the accepted qualifications for a sparks were, C&G A...(JIB Elect Grade) C&G B Apprd. Elect. ....C&G C Technician , but I've worked with some guys with ONC and HNC .

Some sparks cannot even be compared with building trades. My mate Bob the Breakdown was asked to wire up a plant making massive sheets of corrigated cardboard. He gets us in to run trunking and wiring etc .

Then it transpires that the plant is all second hand , its about 150 mtrs long , the first bit is British, the next is Italian,then American then German and so on ..... so the schematic for British bit , giant rollers feeding the three layers of cardboard in to the corrigator , doesn't match up with the next section , which is German .

Now one section had about 300 cables from one panel to the next , but Bob the Breakdown sits down and re-designs the bleedin' lot to make it all work . Not an easy task I can assure you . The whole lot, being oldish, working on 1st generation electronics , which meant getting a German expert in to comission .

On the other hand , Bob the Breakdown doesn't do house bashing or general installation and is not that conversant with the Regs because theres hardly anything in there that concerns what he does. He leaves that to us. Or did, he,s packed up now.

What am I trying to say here , we are a diverse lot I think , we are not like plasterers , brickies ,roofers or general builders so we appear slightly aloof perhaps , its only because we have little in common with them , our problems are different , our aims are different ....we are ....................ELECTRICIANS :Salute :Salute:Salute:Applaud:Applaud:Applaud:Applaud:Applaud:Applaud:Applaud:Applaud:Applaud:Applaud:Applaud

 

[apprentice87]

Hi Manator,

All interesting stuff!!!

john...