Why is the electrical trade unique in the way it behaves towards customers and fellow tradesmen

[springcrocus]

If your that interested read thishttp://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/planningandbuilding/pdf/703049.pdf

Intersting that a UK document supports American spelling!

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Why are electricians such a bunch of self-righteous individuals who always know better than their peers. Hmm. Who can answer this?

Questions like this just make me think that some people have a narrow view of a lot of workplaces....

I know of loads of people in numerous trades who sla9 off their peers colleagues etc...

Ever been in an IT support enviroment....

Knowledge is power and 'A' will do all they can to keep information form 'B' 'C' & 'D' to keep control over them ..

and put them down for not been as clever!

or how about the telecommunications industry....

I have know loads of "engineers" lauding their abilities over their peers and complaining about their limitations...

Teachers....

Go listen in a staff room when certain teachers are NOT in there!!!

All trades, All work environments, All industries have people who like to assert their knowledge and power over others..

Sometimes.. often frequently though there is some validity in the complaints about another person..

and the person who is lacking, is the one who cannot understand what the problem is or why others are getting irritated by their inability to grasp a concept.....

Speaking of Electricians and 5WW...

did any one else see this post...

http://www.talk.electricianforum.co.uk/electricians-electrical-jobs-offered/20541-jaguar-land-rover-looking-skilled-trades-uk.html

Interesting comment...

To join our industry-leading team, you

 

[revjames]

http://www.talk.electricianforum.co.uk/electricians-electrical-jobs-offered/20541-jaguar-land-rover-looking-skilled-trades-uk.html

To join our industry-leading team, you

 

[unphased]

Good morning

Whilst there are some interesting thoughts on here I fear we are getting off topic. Attack on builders. ; \

Example of what I am trying to figure out. I recently gave a second quote against a spark who was asked to repair a shower circuit. Tenants had damaged the shower switch which just needed replacing, the shower itself had packed up so again just needed replacing. The shower circuit was correctly installed on a separate shower CU with 30mA RCD and 32A mcb. The spark quoted

 

[Manator]

It is not the regulations that are to blame but the inept way in which some electricians adopt them.

There was a program run by watchdog that covered similar stories and tactics used by British Gas, so it is across the board as far as trades are concerned.

As for writing the regulations believe it or not we are all involved in the final writing of the regulations, if you read the first few pages of the book you will find the contact details were you can actually put right any mistakes that you come across when reading and using the regulations.

In all trades you will find those who have very limited moral standing and its not just our trade!

 

[Doc Hudson]

Good morningWhilst there are some interesting thoughts on here I fear we are getting off topic. Attack on builders. ; \

Example of what I am trying to figure out. I recently gave a second quote against a spark who was asked to repair a shower circuit. Tenants had damaged the shower switch which just needed replacing, the shower itself had packed up so again just needed replacing. The shower circuit was correctly installed on a separate shower CU with 30mA RCD and 32A mcb. The spark quoted

 

[davetheglitz]

Having been through an electrical engineering apprenticeship with many years in engineering design I've found that people are people whatever discipline they come from (with the exception of Software engineers who as a rule have egos the size of a planet and think anyone who doesn't understand their uncommented code is not worthy of their attention!).

There are mentors, gobsh***s, cowboys with black hats, cowboys with white hats, knowledge is power types, the regs are law types, I am the law types as well as a lot of genuine people in engineering.

What many electricians seem to forget is that our trade is a very small part of engineering as a whole - and the electrician qualifications that are currently on offer can be achieved by multiple guess with no understanding. 30-40 years ago good standards of Maths Physics and English were the key qualifications to get an electrical apprenticeship. Now good grades in GSCE Physics and Maths would get you through 80% of 2330 theory with a couple of weeks teaching! Perhaps this is why some 5WW on this forum are so good!

Combine this with a general perception of the public that electricians and the most qualified trade and most general public are afraid of it, it's not surprising that some electricians do have a superiority complex. That's why we need forums like this to air views and knock these types back cold logic!

 

[unphased]

Well, getting back to the point about the regs, I don't see why they have to be so complicated in the WAY in which they are wrtitten, not the content. It is a non-statutory document at the moment, but it is shaping up very nicely to become statutory. My main beef is the inter weaving cross references throughout, the endless reference to british standards and the cumbersome references to other regs so that the reader is bogged down with so much baggage it is small wonder electricians struggle to understand. I am no thicko but I detetst reading the regs with a passion. I am sorry if people reading that statement are hurt in any way if they feel it is a well written document, I don't. I feel there is enormous scope for simplifying the entire spectrum of the electrical regulations. If the regulations are so well written and so comprehensive I would question the need for eight guidance notes, an on-site guide, an electricians guide, an electricians guide to the building regulations. I used to use BS8110 concrete design, BS449 and BS 5950 structural design and BS5268 timber design and BS5628 Masonary code. All these documents were well written stand alone comprehensive codes that needed no extra guidance and needed no guidance notes attached. The reluctance on the part of the forum to accept my observations leads me to wonder whther electricians don't want to simplify anyhing and like the industry the way it is. btw the comments on this thread that imply someone dies if the regs are ignored only applies to electrical trade is a little misguided. A well known structural engineer in the WMCC designed a car park without designing in the load from cars and it was incapable of being used. Had it been used the thing would have collapsed.

I feel that the regs are to blame for a lot of argumnets because they are too awkward and clumsy to read. The recent debate about insulated and sheathed v. double insulated is a classic case of my point. Does it really matter that something is insulated and sheathed or has two layers of pvc coating for the end result to matter?

 

[Manator]

I fully understand what you are saying, I do not find the regulations confusing or hard to read, remember it is a reference book after all and used properly as intended is not too difficult to get around. From your statements I can also see that you have an analytical mind, which suggests to me that you have had cause to use reference material before. If anyone has done any higher further education like HNC HND or degree's would be aware of how to use reference material and how it is always cross referenced.

The British Standards you have quoted are individual standards and can go into greater individual detail, the wiring regulation cover a wider spectrum which is why we have all the other reference books.

 

[Evans Electric]

And on top of it all , much as Dave the Glitz said and Specs, people is people, there used to be the "We are the Electric Police " atitude from the local Electricity Boards a few years ago , you are merely contractors.

Give a man a flat uniform hat and call him a Car Park attendant and he becomes Adolph Hitler incarnate. I know the rules and you don't...I'm in control here ..you have spent too long spending your money in my town ...or the concert has run over time, not my problem.. ...now you must be made to pay etc.

As Specs says , I too have worked with those who keep all the relevent information from you , which makes them all knowing and you stupid and sub-serviant. Also the newly qualified policeman syndrome who when off duty , is still checking the brother-in -law's tax disc.

I've heard that one a lot from Sparks... "Its against the law..... it doesn't comply with the latest Regs.... well on day one of the Regs issue date , nothing in the country complied with the latest edition and still doesn't ...but it complies with the previous edition... they don't seem to see that .

 

[davetheglitz]

I feel that the regs are to blame for a lot of argumnets because they are too awkward and clumsy to read. The recent debate about insulated and sheathed v. double insulated is a classic case of my point. Does it really matter that something is insulated and sheathed or has two layers of pvc coating for the end result to matter?

This is a common theme in engineering. Lots of equipment has a multitude of documents saying how it is built and to be maintained. There are no documents explaining why it was built that way.

The regs are a similar case. They could be simplified a lot if they were written in a way explaining why the regulation is needed, why the regulation is written that way and finally a statement of what the regulation is.

For example half a page on:- Why is bonding necessary - why is 10mm needed as a minimum now(as opposed to 6mm say)- why is it OK to bond between services with one wire - what constitutes an installation requiring to be bonded.

Followed by:- The regulations associated with bonding

I'd be intrigued to know the definitive answers to some of of those questions!

Also I wonder if the regs should be split 3 ways - Domestic, Commercial and Industrial - as a one size fits all document has to cover all variants so will need greater interpretation.

 

[Evans Electric]

I think some of it could have been left out altogether , but available as an OSG type booklet which you would buy if and when you needed it.

I'm thinking of :-

Swimming pools

Sauna

Caravans

Exhibitions

Mobile units

Fairground booths

Never worked on Caravan sites, exhibitions , Mobile units or Fairgrounds . Just buy the relevent OSG if it crops up instead of cluttering up the Regs book.

Just a thought.

 

[davetheglitz]

If it was free to download and refer to there would be no excuses for the cowboys - and the technically minded pubic would police it!

Also you could print out only the relevant sections and tables (how often have you seen or used aluminium cables if you're domestic/light commercial?)

Also if it was free to download it would have to be simpler for the public to understand!

 

[steptoe]

Ive done some reasonably big commercial and light industrial and the only times I have come across Ali cable is ripping it out. :|

 

[Revved Up Sparky]

Out of all the trades people I have worked with, Electricians are by far the most pompous and self opinionated bunch.

Have you worked with all 100,000 + qualified electricians in the UK ?.... if not then please do not make such unfair generalisations. There are some fantastic sparks out there...... and some of them are members of this forum ! :grouphug

 

[ProDave]

I remember crimping ali cables. As an apprentice, as an exercise. Never ever done it in the real world.

 

[Evans Electric]

Ali was a PITA as I remember . You have to go a size bigger for a start, and you must...MUST fit a bigger spreader box than you would for the same in copper . And because the cores are delta shaped , when the lug goes on you have to almost violently twist the core to marry the lug to the bar. And plaster it all in Densol Paste.

During the Great Copper Shortage of ninteen hundred and frightened to death , twin/earth Alum was sold for house bashing , 4mm was used for ring mains and I think it reacted with the brass terminals of sockets.

 

[apprentice87]

Hi Davetheglitz,

You say it would be good if there were to be something that expanded as it were on the regs...Well, there is!!!

Go here and have a look at the free trial!!

Essential guide : Electrical Safety Council

I have had a look and it is VASTLY superior to anything else!!!!

john...

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Hi Davetheglitz,You say it would be good if there were to be something that expanded as it were on the regs...Well, there is!!!

Go here and have a look at the free trial!!

Essential guide : Electrical Safety Council

I have had a look and it is VASTLY superior to anything else!!!!

john...

It cant be any good cuz you get free access to the Essential Guide as an NICEIC member....

and we all know anything NIC related is cr4p cuz we keep getting told that by the non NIC wise ones of the forum

:innocent

spose its just something else you get for your money from the "money making" scams...



that is actually useful and helps the average spark understand the regs & their changes...

Along with the pocket guides etc...

:|

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 11:52 ---------- Previous post was made at 11:28 ----------

I wonder how you sparks who struggle with the regs book manage with things like the highway code...

thats got lots of sub sections and cross references...

Overtaking, Breakdowns, Driving in Adverse weather.... etc.. etc..

then a bit on Motorways....

which cross references all the above bits and vice versa..

and they all cross reference road traffic signs..

And there are loads of other reference books and guides by voluntary industry memberships assistance schemes like the

AA, RAC, Green Flag...

Do you all struggle with driving as much as you do with interpreting regs....?

e.g. this week you are driving a car on 'A' roads next week you are a van with a trailer on Motorways....

Any competent person who cannot use the index, and contents and chapter headings etc. to navigate around the regs has dubious rights to claim to be competent IMHO....

:C

What do you proposes to do about small commercial installations that have less circuits than the average domestic...

and big domestic with multiple CU's ..

loads of sub-mains to outbuildings

swimming pool

under drive heating...

more than one phase

etc..

BUT...

is still Domestic!!

Have loads of little mini regs books...

Domestic.

Industrial.

Commercial.

Little Commercial

Big Domestic.

Building sites.

etc..

etc..

etc..

??

:C

 

[unphased]

Just because something can be used doesn't mean it can't be improved. There seems to be an underlying theme on this thread that supports the opinion that the regs are perfectly understandable in their present guise. I am not disagreeing with that but there is room to simplify and make it a more digestable read. It is not a case of "well I understand it grin grin why don't you?". It is more a question of producing something that is less inclined to produce so many differences of opinion. It is because there are so many differences of opinion that proves thatn in reality the regulations are poorly written and only the clever ones can make any sense of them.

Can I ask this question. Are the regulations written to promote safety or are they purely a means of allowing electricians to be prosecuted for non-compliance. The way in which they are currently written stronly suggests to me that they are more aligned with lawyers than electricians.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 19:08 ---------- Previous post was made at 19:02 ----------

I fully understand what you are saying, I do not find the regulations confusing or hard to read, remember it is a reference book after all and used properly as intended is not too difficult to get around. From your statements I can also see that you have an analytical mind, which suggests to me that you have had cause to use reference material before. If anyone has done any higher further education like HNC HND or degree's would be aware of how to use reference material and how it is always cross referenced.The British Standards you have quoted are individual standards and can go into greater individual detail, the wiring regulation cover a wider spectrum which is why we have all the other reference books.

Hi manator. Cross referencing is a clumsy way of writing. If more careful thought is put in to what is being written the need to cross reference diminishes. You will find that the better reference works have very little cross referencing at all. It is because the regualtions have been added to and mixed around so many times the cross referencing has got out of hand. Ther eis absolutely no need to make continuous references to previous regulations appearing in a different section and certainly no need to make consistent reference to BS EN or other standards. Does anybody on this forum actually admit to having looked at BS EN 60898? or BS 1361? or BS 3871? etc etc etc? Because I haven't an see absolutely no need to. Why it appears in the regulations is beyond me. It should be mentioned once.