Why is the electrical trade unique in the way it behaves towards customers and fellow tradesmen

[NozSpark]

The problem is IMHO that the regs do indeed need to reference other BS documents.

In the case of the MCB which you've discussed in this thread before,,, the operating characteristics of a BS3871 MCB are different to a BS60898 MCB so in that case (and other similar ones) you cannot just refer to them as MCB's

As for us reading those "other" documents, in the main there is no need, all we are doing is installing items made to these standards

 

[Sidewinder]

unphased,

I actually have copies of MANY of the cross referenced standards.

The method of presentation will not now change, it has to comply with the EN standard upon which our regs are based.

It has changed in its "format" from, do this, do that, do the other.

To, you must achieve this, that and the other.

There are two general terms for the differing writing "formats" but I can't remember them now & I have to shoot off to do some work shortly.

Oh & BTW yes I have looked at 60898, 1361, 3871, and many others including 60204-1, 60439, 61439, 6004, 1363, 13849, 5266, 499, 308, 6700, 99, 4163, and a hundred others, I have to to meet my obligations, as do others on here have to refer to and hold other standards not just 7671.

 

[kme]

On the computer I am currently using, I have a folder on the desktop for business. Within "business" there is a "reference" folder. Within "reference" there are 8 other folders; one of which is "British Standards".

In THAT folder are NINETY separate and distinct publications. I have read most of them, and referred to probably 75% of them at some time - and every one is connected to the elctrical work I carry out, in one way or another.

I`ve heard other people say "the regs are hard to understand" - but I would disagree. I actually LIKE the cross-referencing aspect - I know where else I need to look if I need more info - but I don`t have to wade through an excess of non-pertinent rules if I don`t need to.

Spec: Yes, I`ve read the highway code - (was probably about 9 the first time) - but I`m willing to bet that most people haven`t, apart from a short cramming session before their test!!!!! People don`t like to read, especially when they struggle with the "difficult" sentences!!!!!

Unphased: The way I read your posts, YOU don`t like the way the regs are written, and blame them for the general mess the country is in generally, and the electrical trade specifically?

Nah mate, although I do believe there is a common underlying thread to both - "edjakashun"!!!!

I don`t find the trade disagreeable as a rule - yes, people can have different opinions as to the interpretation of a regulation.....but that goes on in EVERY regulated job - politicians will happily bend a parliamentary reg, if it lets them skim more money - though when they get "caught", they haven`t actually contravened a rule in their eyes - but they have in mine, `cos I didn`t vote for `em to line their pockets (not really a good analogy - politicians make their own rules as they go along!!!!

Every incident you have called up in this thread would have been completely unaffected by a change to, or lack of, regulation. "That`s illegal missus" is the cry of cowboys across Britain, be they sparx, plumbits, builders or MOT inspectors. Methinks you forgot to take off the rose-tinted spectacles mate......wake up & smell the coffee, cos this is "life as we know it"!!!!!

 

[steptoe]

:shakehead tut tut , he shouldnt have done that, that will cost you a fortune to put right now,

ring any bells,?

do any of you hear yourselves?

thought not,

the 5WW hear nothing but the sound of their own importance at being able to learn it all in such a short space of time. :shakehead

 

[apprentice87]

Hi all,

The reason that the regs cross reference to so many other standards [much like ALL british standards do] is so that they can not just sell you the one standard, the one you are interested in, but a WHOLE BUNCH of them.

I should write a standard " John's guide to posting on a forum"

 

[unphased]

I expected to see replies on the basis of "yes I have read hundreds of other BS's. " I would say probably among 2% of the entire profession have done so, mainly those who teach it and some brave souls who want to. Outside of this forum there are thousands of people who never subscribe to forums. They will be representitive of "the real world" where they neither read nor care about anything as long as their "mates" reassure them from time to time that they are complying with the regs and because they heard it it must be right.

kme. Correct; I don't like the regs. I thought that was loud and clear. This profession IS over regulated, that is my impression and I thought that was loud and clear too. To have to reference hundreds of BSs and hundreds of Euronorms to PRACTICE being an electrician is ridiculous. It is obvious to me that the intention is make the rules and regulations so tight that the only benefactors will be the legal profession. True, this is happening more and more as society leans towards blame culture . Health and safety has gone this way. The need to wear hi viz workwear and hard hats when neither are necessary in some cases is prime example. If you hav an accident and you are not wearing the proper gear its a getr out clause for the insurance companies not to pay out. It has sod all to do with safety. My pont? is it really necessary to have the mass of reference material surrounding and interwoven with BS7671 to sanction a competent person terminating wires in to accessories? Don't think so. No I don't like the regs. I advocate simplification. It is too difficult to do that so nobody has any intention of doing so. It suits the IET, it suits the legal profession and it suits the regs phobes who would hate to have to learn it all over agin having spent so many years memorising the regs numbers to impress their colleagues. Pfft.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 07:31 ---------- Previous post was made at 07:09 ----------

The problem is IMHO that the regs do indeed need to reference other BS documents.In the case of the MCB which you've discussed in this thread before,,, the operating characteristics of a BS3871 MCB are different to a BS60898 MCB so in that case (and other similar ones) you cannot just refer to them as MCB's

As for us reading those "other" documents, in the main there is no need, all we are doing is installing items made to these standards

Hi Noz. I agree. My take on it is simply drop the reference to BS 60898. It is irritating beyond belief to see constant reference to BSs in the regs. So what I say is drop the 60898 and KEEP the type B, C and D (as this by default is a 60898 reference), drop the 3871 and keep the type 1, 2 and 3 as, again, by default, this can only be a 3871 reference. Drop 3036 and just use wire fuse as tis can only be a 3036. There is just no need to bring the BS number in all the time. It is listed in the regs as the standard to which mcbs should be manufactured. This enables the time curve characteristics to be referenced as a type B or a type 2 etc. Who cares wht the BS reference is? The elctrical industry is pre-occupied with BSs and standards. It seems that if they can fill out a reference book book with hundreds of BSs it makes it plausible. I think they may have omitted one, the BS that applies to the manufacture of copper. Or is all that tangled up in BASEC. They have set a precedent that is perhaps impossible to back pedal on. The dnager is once set they must now capture every single relevasnt code that applies to every aspect of anything electrical. Good luck to them.

 

[Sidewinder]

...My take on it is simply drop the reference to BS 60898. It is irritating beyond belief to see constant reference to BSs in the regs. So what I say is drop the 60898 and KEEP the type B, C and D (as this by default is a 60898 reference), drop the 3871 and keep the type 1, 2 and 3 as, again, by default, this can only be a 3871 reference....

The thing is unhased, what about BS3871 types B, C & D breakers?

These were implemented into BS 3871 prior to the release of BS EN 60898.

 

[apprentice87]

Hi Unphased,

You say;

"I expected to see replies on the basis of "yes I have read hundreds of other BS's. " I would say probably among 2% of the entire profession have done so, mainly those who teach it and some brave souls who want to. Outside of this forum there are thousands of people who never subscribe to forums. They will be representitive of "the real world" where they neither read nor care about anything as long as their "mates" reassure them from time to time that they are complying with the regs and because they heard it it must be right"

I cannot agree with that at all....

The ONLY reason that those who are TRULY interested in their trade, and TRULY want to carry out their work to the highest of standards [no pun intended] have NOT read or have access to all the british standards is cost. If they were reasonably priced, i would have the lot..

Unless you are fully conversant with the regs, how can you possibly carry out your work TO to the "regs" mainly BS7671 and this is a legal requirement...

Before everyone jumps on me and says that; "the regs are not law only guidance" Consider this, BS7671 is applicable to 99.9% of what most "ordinary" electricians do; Agreed??

The "regs" are not Statute law, no they are not, but they CREATE offences..... much as the highway code is NOT law, only guidance, but it creates offences. There is no LAW that says you must drive on the left, only guidance, but you drive on the wrong side of the road contrary to the highway code, and it will "create" amongst others, the offence of dangerous driving.

And so it is with the regs, in fact it SPECIFICALLY STATES in the regs that;

"The regulations are non statutory. They may, however, be used in a court of law in evidence to claim compliance with a statutory requirement. The relevant statutory provisions are listed in appendix 2 and include acts of parliament and regulations made thereunder."

Appendix 2 then contains 3 pages of acts of parliament, EAWR etc...

Soooooo, anyone that wants to deviate from the regulations had better make sure that they have a degree in electrical engineering, [i know some of you have!!] as you will be needing one, because, in the event of a problem, you will be called upon to JUSTIFY why you deviated from the regs. I would rather not have to do this....

You further say that;

"My point? is it really necessary to have the mass of reference material surrounding and interwoven with BS7671 to sanction a competent person terminating wires in to accessories?"

See, the thing is, unless you are fully conversant with the regs, you will not be able to select suitable accessories in the first place, nor suitable cables to terminate in them either, unless you want to fall into the category of person that does things because "they have always been done like that"

john...

 

[unphased]

Thats an interesting post, John, but lets take a look at the complicated world of the domestic spark. The domestic spark is mainly involved in installing standard circuits and reference to the regs is hardly ever needed. I spent a great deal of time in the early part of my career studying text books regs onsite guide and guidance notes but rarely feel the need to look at them these days. Some specialist stuff like the one I did recently to connect up a hot tub did require me to look at them and study again for that section but I have to disagree , despite your excellent reasoning, with your stance.

If you were stack up on a shelf next to you all the 100s of books codes regulations and the like applicable to our trade you would be amazed at the huge size of it. I am sorry but few sparks would ever contemplate reading through that lot and few do. This is why I advocate simplifying the whole lot and getting rid of all the unnecessary baggage that is food for the lawyers not instructions to electricians.

Your words: And so it is with the regs, in fact it SPECIFICALLY STATES in the regs that;

"The regulations are non statutory. They may, however, be used in a court of law in evidence to claim compliance with a statutory requirement. The relevant statutory provisions are listed in appendix 2 and include acts of parliament and regulations made thereunder."

Appendix 2 then contains 3 pages of acts of parliament, EAWR etc...

It is surprising that anyone would even want to be an electrician with the veiled threat of prosecution hanging over their heads.

See, the thing is, unless you are fully conversant with the regs, you will not be able to select suitable accessories in the first place, nor suitable cables to terminate in them either, unless you want to fall into the category of person that does things because "they have always been done like that"

Oh come on John! Sockets, switches. light fittings, spurs, cooker switches , shower switches. Hardly gonna choose the wrong one am I. Nor is anyone else. The regulations have been made overly complictaed to cover such simple stuff. Cowboys only get it wrong because they have no conscience. People with a conscience will be capable of getting the job done properly.

A socket is a socket. There are numpties who think all sockets must be switched and pick them up in EICRs as non-compliant. I deal mainly in the domestic sector and there are few things to warrant getting the entire spectrum of reference material. I wished I had done a degree in electrical engineering instead of civil engineering but thats life. I ain't gonna do one now at 53 years of age. ; \

 

[Zeespark]

Just have look at some of the woeful work found in pics uploaded by members Unphased, you can see that some electricians have no conscience.

AndyGuinness.

 

[unphased]

Like I said sidewinder I am just trying to make a point not re-write the regs on here. I know there will be exceptions. I just feel so strongly that the regs are now out of hand and something needs to be done. I know also it never will be because too many people have a vested interest, it would seem, in continuing the theme of cramming more and more regulations in and adding more BSs and ENs. Why? Has ohms law changed or soemething. Are we dealing with installation, design, quality of workmanship or just laws. I say just laws for the sake of it. Part P didn'rt solve the failings of the domestic sector .

Regards

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 18:27 ---------- Previous post was made at 18:20 ----------

Just have look at some of the woeful work found in pics uploaded by members Unphased, you can see that some electricians have no conscience.AndyGuinness.

Anyone with a conscience is going to do well in whatever profession they choose. If making money at any cost is the underlying reason then the cowboy sits in that mold. All the photographs you like are not ever going to change the profession by making more laws and adding reams more text to the regs. IMHO there should be more photos of excellent standards of installs and good quality. What is the point in showing a photo of a burnt out switch or untidy wiring. What does that actually say to the viewer. Focus on the good, we allknow that electricty is dangerous in the wrong hands so tbh I am immune to the type of photos you referr to. I would like to see more photos of good examples. Wouldn't you?

 

[kme]

Now there is not really such a thing as a "domestic spark" - you`re either a sparky, or you ain`t!

If we`re talking of people who will never venture out of their own little world of house-bashing.....maybe they don`t need know every nuance of regulatory code - I`m not getting into that.

However, a qualified electrician needs to be able to refer to certain sets of specifications, as and when the need arises.

Suppose a job was offered to three different electricians; which involved things they`d never had to deal with before (for instance, an extension to a doctor`s surgery).

Sparky no. 1 considers it as a "normal" job, though he`s never done it before - and prices it as you would any other extension.

Sparky no. 2 only bashes houses - he doesn`t know enough to work on TPN subs. ; and commercial properties, let alone MEIGaN rules and HTMs.

Sparky no. 3 hasn`t done it before; so he finds out what other standards may refer; looks at them, and decides if it is something he is capable of dealing with.

Only 1 of those three will look at any rules or regs - so 66% of our example wouldn`t bother, or even know there WAS a standard to look at!!!!!

But that one is the ONLY one who could do the job properly!!!!!

I`m finding this thread getting a bit repetitive - the same comment seems to be repeated over and over. :C

 

[Manator]

Unphased, I quite like this debate it shows what people on the ground think. I do also understand what you are trying to say, however, even those who do repetitive circuits should always check it is within the designed thresholds.

Lets take a 4mm 32 amp radial, say 30m in length, then lets throw it under 200mm of thermal insulation down to just a couple of sockets. It soon becomes clear that some "electricians" will install this cable simply because the regs say that a 4mm radial can have a 32 amp breaker. Some will install it because thats what they have always done, then there are those who look at all the regulations and calculate accordingly, then get surprised when the cable needed would probably be around the 10mm mark as opposed to the 4mm intended.

This example is just to show that even when doing mundane installations account of all regulations are needed at all times.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

:C

bad day explode

:shakehead

I really cannot be bothered to get involved any further in this thread other than to say....

To any competent person the regs are NOT complicated or difficult to follow....

I sometimes wonder if people on some forums just like to moan for moaning's sakes...

My work is predominantly domestic .....

But I still reference the regs as & when required....

such as:-

we do get NEW construction methods within houses, thus installation methods and cable ratings change......

and new materials and accessories to connect...

and checking compliance / non-compliances when doing periodic inspections...

If designing a new build I cannot remember off the top of my head all max lengths for volt-drop Zs etc...

Additional loads being put onto older circuits...

still need to check that they are adequate and suitable for both the load & protective measures..

etc..

etc..

etc..

Do you REALLY think the electrical industry is the only area of work where people have to update their reference documents and acceptable work standards etc....

I sometimes think people need to get out a bit more in the real world and spend less time arguing debating on forums.!

:coat

 

[unphased]

Well SL I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I think the regs are overly complicated. I didn't say I didn't understand them, that is how you chose to portray it. The trouble is, the trade has become too attached to their beloved regs and has become ful of bitter and twisted people more concerned with what others are doing wrong and less interested in what they are doing. I enjoy working in the trade but just don't share hardly any of the views experssed by everyone on here. I don't argue for the sake of arguing either. I believe I have a valid point and also believe we are getting in to a very big mess with all the legislation surrouinding our trade. Canoeboy always like sto have a dig at me, no idea why, BS7671 for dummies...don't think so. Maybe a guide to how to treat fellow tradesmen. Can'r debate the point so just has a dig.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 15:28 ---------- Previous post was made at 15:11 ----------

Now there is not really such a thing as a "domestic spark" - you`re either a sparky, or you ain`t!If we`re talking of people who will never venture out of their own little world of house-bashing.....maybe they don`t need know every nuance of regulatory code - I`m not getting into that.

However, a qualified electrician needs to be able to refer to certain sets of specifications, as and when the need arises.

Suppose a job was offered to three different electricians; which involved things they`d never had to deal with before (for instance, an extension to a doctor`s surgery).

Sparky no. 1 considers it as a "normal" job, though he`s never done it before - and prices it as you would any other extension.

Sparky no. 2 only bashes houses - he doesn`t know enough to work on TPN subs. ; and commercial properties, let alone MEIGaN rules and HTMs.

Sparky no. 3 hasn`t done it before; so he finds out what other standards may refer; looks at them, and decides if it is something he is capable of dealing with.

Only 1 of those three will look at any rules or regs - so 66% of our example wouldn`t bother, or even know there WAS a standard to look at!!!!!

But that one is the ONLY one who could do the job properly!!!!!

I`m finding this thread getting a bit repetitive - the same comment seems to be repeated over and over. :C

kme, you have completely missed the point. Whilst I agree with what you have suggested as a scenario it has nothing whatsoever to do with the regs as I am trying to debate. What you have said is day-to-day business and happens with virtually any job. 'A' prices a job, 'B' prices same job and 'C' prices same job. How each approaches it can'r be controled by regs or anything else for that matter, unless perhaps the customer has bothered to get the work designed and spec (chance would be a fine thing) so leavres the work open to misinterpretation. Customer always takes cheapest price. If A was cheapest and didn't understand the job properly it is customrs problem for not checking what he has asked for is what he is gonna get. The regs won't sort out that kind of scenario. What tends to happen is that no specifications or drawings are ever provided for quotations to be properly drawn up. I have had this too many times with big jobs. We don't get design fees ffs but they still expect a quote. House developers are the worst. Always have nice drawings of the building but no services whatsoever shown. So you walk around the job making notes with them while he is literaly designing the thing there and then, the phone rings, he comes back to you and starts changing his mind, so you end up designing it for him spending hours looking at the price, looking at the design, and all he has to say is "no thanks too expensive". That is how the real world operates. We don't get much in the way of proper specs and drawings. This makes the domestic sector very tough to operate in as you are up against the clowns who work on price alone without a thought to what goes in to the job.

Don't confuse daily business with competency or ethics. The regs cannot help how people chose to price work. You can only rely on conscientious sparks to know what to do and price and get the work over the clowns and cowboys. Not easy to fathom out really when you look at it like that.

 

[steptoe]

I don't argue for the sake of arguing

YES YOU DO!

oh, hang on, maybe thats me that does that... :|

Customer always takes cheapest price

I wouldnt completely agree with that, and, thats probably not the sort of customer I want anyway,

they will probably change their mind umpteen times and add extras on and still want it at the cheap price.

 

[Jono Pashley]

People in offices are the biggest problem with all trades....45 mins today waiting for a damn order number for a few lamps and starters wish id told them id pick them up from my own wholesaler...

 

[Doc Hudson]

Customer always takes cheapest price.

That statement is incorrect on so many levels and across almost every area of commerce. If customers always take the cheapest price then vast swathes of premium quality product and services and the business that provide them would be failing every day. Vehicle servicing at franchised car dealers would be non existent, designer fashions would never be produced, British Gas would never be fitting any fuse boxes or doing any rewires, There would only be one approved part P scheme provider (the cheapest), the housing market would be full of cheep affordable properties. Only one supermarket would be successful. Customers purchase over a very wide selection of prices, based on how well a product or service is marketed and sold to them.

Doc H.

 

[kme]

Well SL I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I think the regs are overly complicated. I didn't say I didn't understand them, that is how you chose to portray it. The trouble is, the trade has become too attached to their beloved regs and has become ful of bitter and twisted people more concerned with what others are doing wrong and less interested in what they are doing. I enjoy working in the trade but just don't share hardly any of the views experssed by everyone on here. I don't argue for the sake of arguing either. I believe I have a valid point and also believe we are getting in to a very big mess with all the legislation surrouinding our trade. Canoeboy always like sto have a dig at me, no idea why, BS7671 for dummies...don't think so. Maybe a guide to how to treat fellow tradesmen. Can'r debate the point so just has a dig.

Now the underlined sentence above suggests a "gung-ho, stuff the regs `cos I can`t be bothered wading through all that nonsense" attitude to the trade, which bears a similarity to the "bodgem and leggett" types. Not suggesting for a second YOU are; but I think we generally like to work within the existing legislation, as do other "tradesmen". If you don`t share those views, does that mean you don`t practice the same methodology either?

kme, you have completely missed the point.

That`s not unusual

Whilst I agree with what you have suggested as a scenario it has nothing whatsoever to do with the regs as I am trying to debate. What you have said is day-to-day business and happens with virtually any job. 'A' prices a job, 'B' prices same job and 'C' prices same job. How each approaches it can'r be controled by regs or anything else for that matter, unless perhaps the customer has bothered to get the work designed and spec (chance would be a fine thing) so leavres the work open to misinterpretation.

Hang on a minute. Are you saying that you can spec. and cost a job, with no thought or regard for the rules? Life must be easy when using your estimating methods! I have to verify numerous things with my regs book, even though my memory for numbers etc. is rather good.

Customer always takes cheapest price.

If THAT were true, I know of at least a dozen members of the forum who`d be out of business; myself included. I don`t think I`ve EVER been the cheapest quote to a customer, and wouldn`t want to be, TBH. If being the cheapest is your primary factor for getting work, you`re looking at a different market model to me, and aiming at a very different customer base.........

If A was cheapest and didn't understand the job properly it is customrs problem for not checking what he has asked for is what he is gonna get. The regs won't sort out that kind of scenario. What tends to happen is that no specifications or drawings are ever provided for quotations to be properly drawn up. I have had this too many times with big jobs. We don't get design fees ffs but they still expect a quote.

So we are now saying that a simplified regs would avoid a problem with a lack of design spec? If you don`t like designing the install for a big job, don`t tender for it. Too many of OUR "big jobs" have masses of drawings and spec. from the architects, but half of it is wrong, or they aren`t complying to the standards they ought to be - simplified regs wouldn`t solve that, either. Your moan seems to be tangential, going off onto satellite issues that annoy you, but have little bearing to your original gripe. Just look at the thread topic title.......

House developers are the worst. Always have nice drawings of the building but no services whatsoever shown. So you walk around the job making notes with them while he is literaly designing the thing there and then, the phone rings, he comes back to you and starts changing his mind, so you end up designing it for him spending hours looking at the price, looking at the design, and all he has to say is "no thanks too expensive".

That has never happened yet, and it wouldn`t. If you have this problem regularly, look carefully at your business model, `cos it`s flawed.

That is how the real world operates. We don't get much in the way of proper specs and drawings. This makes the domestic sector very tough to operate in as you are up against the clowns who work on price alone without a thought to what goes in to the job.

Or what may be required to comply with the legislation?

Don't confuse daily business with competency or ethics.

What???? Your ethics, competency (and other things) have a direct influence or your business, be it day-to-day or long term. Anyone who thinks otherwise is either a cowboy, or a muppet.

The regs cannot help how people chose to price work.

Complete and utter drivel! Of course they can, they do, and they damn well ought to.

You can only rely on conscientious sparks to know what to do and price and get the work over the clowns and cowboys. Not easy to fathom out really when you look at it like that.

What I find "difficult to fathom" is how you manage to "look at it like that", whilst suggesting yourself to be conscientious? Your business model, from your post, would appear to consist of going in as cheaply as you can, with the bare minimum spent on materials ( and HOW you "design" a new build without referring to the BGB means its either a worthless design, or you have such an encyclopaedic memory that you can remember every single constant, equation and factor when needed!)

I think YOU have missed the point mate - without the regulations, everyone would be a cowboy.

No offence intended..............................................

 

[unphased]

Perhaps the way I write creates the wrong impression. You have made several wild assumptions about my attitude, kme. This piecemeal disectiong of a forum post is interesting. Totally wrong conclusions of course but interesting. I maintain my stance that the regulations are over complicated and too driven by legalities. On the one hand they state that they are non-statutory and a guide, on the other hand its thou shall comply. On one hand they state that they are non-statutory, on the other that they may be used ina court of law. Absolute drivel. :slap Even the regulations can't make up their mind. Worst written set of rules ever. And the elctricians love them?

Apparently there is a law against using mobile phones whilst driving. :slap

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 08:33 ---------- Previous post was made at 08:27 ----------

That statement is incorrect on so many levels and across almost every area of commerce. If customers always take the cheapest price then vast swathes of premium quality product and services and the business that provide them would be failing every day. Vehicle servicing at franchised car dealers would be non existent, designer fashions would never be produced, British Gas would never be fitting any fuse boxes or doing any rewires, There would only be one approved part P scheme provider (the cheapest), the housing market would be full of cheep affordable properties. Only one supermarket would be successful. Customers purchase over a very wide selection of prices, based on how well a product or service is marketed and sold to them.Doc H.

fgs Doc I was referring to electrical quotations. Not fashion designers. I understand people buy Bentleys. I was informed recently about a chap in London who charges several thousands of pounds to wash a car. "Always" take the cheapest price is not to be taken literally ffs. THIS trade is ABSOLUTELY governed by price. Thats how cowboys can operate in it. If it WASN'T governed by cheapest price we would al be fn millionaires.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 08:39 ---------- Previous post was made at 08:33 ----------

Maybe I should qualify that statement about cheapest price. Where quotations are REQUESTED then obviously the customer wants cheapest. Where a customer asks ONE trade for a price from someone they trust then QUALITY is clearly at tyhe forefront and price is less of an issue. Christ you have to word every syllable in minute detail elase your words get twisted and poked and manipulted to invoke 'thanks' from all the friends.